Chen style stepping

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Chen style stepping

Postby origami_itto on Thu Jul 14, 2022 10:09 am

Somebody posted a video of their Cannon fist done in a sort of step by step manner and again I saw some stepping that seems questionable to me.
Is this how Chen is supposed to be?

Image


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=af5lACFpWLA

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Re: Chen style stepping

Postby robert on Thu Jul 14, 2022 1:27 pm

I was taught high stepping as a training device. I often do it in yilu. It emphasizes balance and is a reminder that any step can be a kick, knee to the crotch, sweep, and so on. It's practiced in Yang style as well.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQf1_UuEHRs

What do you find questionable?
Last edited by robert on Thu Jul 14, 2022 1:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Chen style stepping

Postby origami_itto on Thu Jul 14, 2022 1:31 pm

The part I have reservations about is how heavy his foot lands. Picking the leg up high is a good thing IMHO, but putting it down too hard with committed weight seems like a bad idea.
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Re: Chen style stepping

Postby robert on Thu Jul 14, 2022 2:53 pm

origami_itto wrote:The part I have reservations about is how heavy his foot lands. Picking the leg up high is a good thing IMHO, but putting it down too hard with committed weight seems like a bad idea.

OK. I suspect he's stepping too wide for his ability. I've been taught to put the foot down empty. If you want a wider stance then slide the foot out. Leather or smooth soled gongfu shoes help.
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Re: Chen style stepping

Postby Quigga on Thu Jul 14, 2022 2:57 pm

The step in the clip would be a very easy target for at least a sweep if not worse

Yes put it down empty. Hover. Differentiate Yin Yang. If you want to step farther you have to go lower first.

Or it's a deliberate kick on his part. Doesn't seem that way though.
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Re: Chen style stepping

Postby Quigga on Thu Jul 14, 2022 2:57 pm

You need full control over your step at all times
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Re: Chen style stepping

Postby origami_itto on Thu Jul 14, 2022 3:03 pm

Quigga wrote:The step in the clip would be a very easy target for at least a sweep if not worse
If you want to step farther you have to go lower first.


I agree completely.

robert wrote:
origami_itto wrote:The part I have reservations about is how heavy his foot lands. Picking the leg up high is a good thing IMHO, but putting it down too hard with committed weight seems like a bad idea.

OK. I suspect he's stepping too wide for his ability. I've been taught to put the foot down empty. If you want a wider stance then slide the foot out. Leather or smooth soled gongfu shoes help.


Also this I think but I wouldn't presume
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Re: Chen style stepping

Postby Bhassler on Thu Jul 14, 2022 3:50 pm

As I was taught, there is not "a" way to step in Chen taiji. Rather, there are a variety of different ways to step that are specific to any given movement in the form. If I were to measure based on what I learned, I would say that in the gif in the original post, he is using a combination of wrong methods for that point in the form, and executing them poorly, to boot. That said, I have no idea what his lineage is or what he's trying to accomplish there, so it may be perfectly valid for what he's training for.

You (general "you") can't really talk about Chen style stepping in a generic sense, because there are a variety of methods, and different lineages have different notions as to what is correct. One could certainly debate about what is martially useful, however...
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Re: Chen style stepping

Postby wayne hansen on Thu Jul 14, 2022 5:03 pm

Chen have a very good sliding step where you rub the heel along the ground
Really stretches the legs
I don’t know how anyone can tell he can be swept if you don’t know where his opponent is
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Re: Chen style stepping

Postby Appledog on Thu Jul 14, 2022 9:41 pm

wayne hansen wrote:Chen have a very good sliding step where you rub the heel along the ground
Really stretches the legs
I don’t know how anyone can tell he can be swept if you don’t know where his opponent is



I'd just confirm what origami and wayne said. First point is that he is transferring weight too early in both steps that he makes. The sliding step would solve this issue.

If you step like this all the time you will injure your heel.
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Re: Chen style stepping

Postby Quigga on Fri Jul 15, 2022 2:06 am

Wayne don't you see the second guy sprinting to save his friend (cash cow) who is being controlled by an arm lock and thrown towards the older OP gentleman's right side

Or he is just fixating the arm and torso somewhat and going for a knee break
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Re: Chen style stepping

Postby wayne hansen on Sat Jul 16, 2022 2:11 pm

Matters little what I see
It only matters what the guy practicing the form sees
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Re: Chen style stepping

Postby yeniseri on Fri Jul 22, 2022 4:02 pm

Bhassler wrote:As I was taught, there is not "a" way to step in Chen taiji. Rather, there are a variety of different ways to step that are specific to any given movement in the form. If I were to measure based on what I learned, I would say that in the gif in the original post, he is using a combination of wrong methods for that point in the form, and executing them poorly, to boot. That said, I have no idea what his lineage is or what he's trying to accomplish there, so it may be perfectly valid for what he's training for.

You (general "you") can't really talk about Chen style stepping in a generic sense, because there are a variety of methods, and different lineages have different notions as to what is correct. One could certainly debate about what is martially useful, however...


Great point! The X'ian group (branch of Chen family that left Chenjiagou) tends to have "higher" postures then Chenjiagou and express them "diffferently" and "uniquely". One isn't better but the usage/utility often decides what we see and want in training keeping in mind that martial is less sought out today as part of training. Personally, I inderstand that Small Frame (xiaojia) was the actual original expression but cultural attitudes shifted to those who "more or less' went with the status quo, whatever that may have been at the time.






It is rare to find this level of teaching today!
Last edited by yeniseri on Fri Jul 22, 2022 4:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Chen style stepping

Postby charles on Sun Aug 14, 2022 8:09 pm

A little late to the discussion but...

I've known the practitioner in the video posted in the OP for a few decades: he is a local teacher. He claims that he learned "Chen Cannon Fist" from Jou Tsunghwa. I'm not going to get into a discussion about JTH's Taijiquan, particularly his "Chen", but will leave it to others to decide for themselves the "orthodoxy" of it. The practitioner in the video is primarily a Yang stylist, mostly based on the "old Ban Hou Yang" style taught by visiting professor Dr. Shen Zaiwen.

https://sites.google.com/site/coldmount ... instructor

In my opinion, what is shown in the OP video indicates that the practitioner is unaware of the uses of the movements he is making and are, at best, neigong and, at worst, an approximation of traditional choreography.
Last edited by charles on Sun Aug 14, 2022 8:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Chen style stepping

Postby wayne hansen on Mon Aug 15, 2022 12:43 am

I have always had my doubts about Jou after reading his book that claimed you had to learn the same basic form in 5 styles rather than learning a full system
If the guys Chen is dicey with all the sources around I would hate to think where his Ban Hou is at
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