Ting Jin (Listening), Pts. 1 & 2 — Clear Tai Chi

[origami_itto]

I wish I could find the article, but there was some relatively recent research involving someone holding a stick on the other side of a barrier to vision and someone else touching the stick at various points. There was a significantly high rate of accuracy in the results.

Our only communication with our perceptive consciousness is through the sense data we collect. We can feel our own body's response to outside forces. The less resistance we offer, the more sensitive our perception of these outside forces becomes until "A feather cannot be added, nor can a fly alight without upsetting equilibrium.”

Micro-sensitivity, consciousness of energy flowing through the body, control of the body to the ten-thousandth part, all comes together in some subtle and fascinating ways.

[windwalker]

Per Chen Kung (in [url=https://www.amazon.com/Tai-Sensing-Hands-Chen-Kungs/dp/1892515156]Tai Chi Sensing Hands[/url]), tingjin is listening through the sense of touch. The above videos are examples of listening from the clinch with touch. However, one can listen without requiring touch (e.g., outside of bridging or grappling range), offering no resistance.

If one listens, adheres and sticks to their opponent's energy before making contact, they can defeat their opponent from a superior position—which is often the case in a well-rounded style fighter vs a grappler.

There are a number of teachers who using other names besides "pushing hands" feeling it causes confusion among those who practice it..

汪永泉授楊式太極拳語錄及拳照
Wang Yongquan Writings on Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan
Translated by Richard Man, http://facebook.com/groups/IMA.LiteraryTradition

(五) 揉手要有正確的目的
(Five) “Rubbing Hand” (Push Hand) Must Be Done With Correct Intent
練習揉手要有正確的目的。揉手又名推手。揉手的目的是為了校正練習者對拳術理論不正確的 理解，發現並糾正學習拳架時的不正確的練法，以及不正確的揉手方法，避免出現偏差而走入 吱途。有些人對揉手沒有正確的理解，認為揉手只是為了一爭高下，因而在練習時，拳友之間 往往容易產生誤會和摩擦，甚至傷害身體。這種偏差是由於缺少教養或違反武德，而在揉手中 摻雜了非太極拳的拆手、散打，以及反關節擒拿等招術，使揉手形成了較力的緣故。

Practicing “Rubbing Hand” must be done with correct intent. Rubbing Hand is commonly known as Push Hand.

The purpose of Rubbing Hand is for the practitioners to validate their understanding of the martial art principles.

練習揉手主要是為了"懂勁兒"為了練成真正的太極功夫，而不是為了爭強好勝，以致不擇手 段。我的老師楊澄甫說，揉手時，要用太極拳的功夫贏人，才能讓對方口服心服。
The prime reason for practicing Rubbing Hand is to “Understand Jin” and learn the true Tai Chi Gong Fu, and not to see who is stronger or who would win, even using unsportsman like techniques or with bad intention.

My teacher Yang Chengfu said, “If you win over your opponent using true Tai Chi Chuan Gong Fu at Rubbing Hand, then you will get their respect from their heart and mouth.” {translator: that is, otherwise even if you win, then they fear you, but may not respect you. }

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mNjY7D-ffY

Master Wang uses internal chi energy rather than external muscular force to move his partner. He must first be sensitive and feel his partner's center and then absorb any force directed towards him before emitting chi outwards.

Hands are primarily antennae to sense another person's energy, not an instrument to push.

The energy comes from the ground through Master Wang's center and trunk.

https://www.searchcentertaichi.com/notouch.html

Another teacher who uses the term search center to describe his practice of what some call "push hands"

If one can listen with out touch, they should be able to affect the other also

Always interesting reading what is "written" and then seeing it in action..

Tends to challenge basic understanding of ones practice if they have not developed the same type of skill sets
assuming their practice is based on them...

[wayne hansen]

As I have said many times
Tai chi is passed on literally from hand to hand
If your teacher dosent have it you can’t get it

[Doc Stier]

As I have said many times
Tai chi is passed on literally from hand to hand
If your teacher dosent have it you can’t get it

Very true. It requires four hands to learn good TCC, or good kungfu of any kind. Those circumstances may or may not include a famous teacher, style or lineage, but four hands are needed nonetheless.

As it relates to this discussion, acquiring the subtle sensitivity of effective ting-jin skill is a slow and difficult process even with excellent instruction and regular hands on demonstration over time. And it's damn near impossible to acquire without that type of personal interaction with an expert teacher who already possesses such skill.

[Trip]

First, tingjin is a developed type of skill, which means that you need to practice in certain ways for a certain amount of time. You won’t have it until you have developed it.

Per Chen Kung - Tai Chi Sensing Hands[/url][/i]), tingjin is listening through the sense of touch. The above videos are examples of listening from the clinch with touch. However, one can listen without requiring touch (e.g., outside of bridging or grappling range), offering no resistance.
If one listens, adheres and sticks to their opponent's energy before making contact, they can defeat their opponent from a superior position—which is often the case in a well-rounded style fighter vs a grappler.

But, it is not the well rounded fighter or grappler who is making the claim that they are using Taiji ting jin.
It is only you saying/implying they are using "Tai Chi Sensing Hands."

I'm not saying what they do doesn't work. but though similar, What they do to off balance their opponent works.
But that doesn't mean they are doing Taiji skills.

If you were to ask them I think many of them would probably say they are doing and what their mind is focusing on, is something else.

An example is when the champion UFC guy was off balanced by Adam Mizner is was wowed. He didn't say that's what I do too.

[marvin8]

First, tingjin is a developed type of skill, which means that you need to practice in certain ways for a certain amount of time. You won’t have it until you have developed it.

No, you misquoted me. Bao said that.

Per Chen Kung (in Tai Chi Sensing Hands), tingjin is listening through the sense of touch. The above videos are examples of listening from the clinch with touch. However, one can listen without requiring touch (e.g., outside of bridging or grappling range), offering no resistance.

If one listens, adheres and sticks to their opponent's energy before making contact, they can defeat their opponent from a superior position—which is often the case in a well-rounded style fighter vs a grappler.

But, it is not the well rounded fighter or grappler who is making the claim that they are using Taiji ting jin.
It is only you saying/implying they are using "Tai Chi Sensing Hands."

I'm not saying what they do doesn't work. but though similar, What they do to off balance their opponent works.
But that doesn't mean they are doing Taiji skills.

I neither said nor implied anyone was "claiming or doing Taiji skills." You are making straw man arguments.

If you were to ask them I think many of them would probably say they are doing and what their mind is focusing on, is something else.

Simply, one can either listen by touching or without touching. Please don't read into or misinterpret that.

An example is when the champion UFC guy was off balanced by Adam Mizner is was wowed. He didn't say that's what I do too.

I didn't say he would say that. The UFC guy commented on Mizner's demo under demo rules, not a fight.

[windwalker]

An example is when the champion UFC guy was off balanced by Adam Mizner is was wowed. He didn't say that's what I do too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5rpP2qIRI0


yes he didn't, he came according to what was said as "skeptics"

[Steve James]

Hmm, do y'all think that ting (tingjin) is so unique to tcc that it doesn't exist outside of it? Does it exist in bagua?

There seem to be thoughts going in different directions. But, I'd still argue that the difference is not what it is, but why it is. Tcc use of ting is specific to tcc techniques/objectives. There is a specific reason for listening -i.e., to apply tcc. If someone studies a different art, they listen for different things for different reasons.

In order to listen, someone has to be saying something. (So, there's that saying "if the opponent does not move...). But, then the question becomes what does one listen with? Yeah, in a bar, if a guy says "I'm gonna punch you in the mouth," hearing him isn't doing tcc yet. Listening in this context surely involves the ears, but there's a lot more going on. Yes, ime, one can definitely affect that person without touching. Studying tcc might even enable someone to dissuade an attacker. Maybe. However, imo, the point is how to use ting once the opponent attacks.

Anyway, "it takes four hands," but listening isn't restricted to the hands. CMC used the idea that the hands were the antennas. But, all the other parts of the body were/are expected to be listening. If the shoulder is hit, it has to be listening or the blow will have more force. Of course, if someone's good, they won't resist but they won't let go either. Otoh, if it's not in the hands, it's not in the body.

Imo, this goes back to Suntzi's idea about "knowing the self, and knowing the other." Ting is how one "knows" the other, and understands what they are trying to do. In some styles, the idea is to help them go in whatever direction they want. All that's necessary is to find out what direction that is. If anything, I'd say it's that tcc theory asks someone to wait.

Afa sensitivity, the most responsive person I've ever met was a tango partner I had. She could be put in motion with the slightest touch.

[windwalker]

Simply, one can either listen by touching or without touching.

How do you know this....

How do you know the "listening" you speak of is the same what is meant by those in the "taiji"
community

[windwalker]

Hmm, do y'all think that ting (tingjin) is so unique to tcc that it doesn't exist outside of it?
Does it exist in bagua?

.

What do you feel "tingjin" is used to listen/understand

When you and some others can answer this, it would help to clarify the difference.

IME touch has very little to with it, although it is a starting point ...4oz
The idea to start at skin, distinguish it from the bone "frame".

Physical pressure felt really has nothing to do with it, its not what "tingjin" is used to sense ...there are many, many demos making this point quite clear

others might find different.

[marvin8]

Simply, one can either listen by touching or without touching.

How do you know this....

How do you know the "listening" you speak of is the same what is meant by those in the "taiji"
community

Where is "'taiji' community" in my sentence?

[Steve James]

What do you feel "tingjin" is used to listen/understand

Specifically? an opponent's direction and strength. I could explain it with a diagram showing a force redirected on a tangent from a circle. There's an old book by Yearning K Chen, student of Tian Zhaolin, that has plenty of such diagrams. But, obviously, the purpose is to do whatever tcc does. Fill in the blanks with whatever you use it for.

[windwalker]

What do you feel "tingjin" is used to listen/understand

Specifically? an opponent's direction and strength. I could explain it with a diagram showing a force redirected on a tangent from a circle.
There's an old book by Yearning K Chen, student of Tian Zhaolin, that has plenty of such diagrams.
But, obviously, the purpose is to do whatever tcc does. Fill in the blanks with whatever you use it for.

Thanks for the reply,,

Our understanding seems to be quite different....

[Quigga]

Easiest way to practice imo is to play with a dog. Have the toy they want in your hand, let them try to snatch it and pull it away only just as they're snatching for it. The eyes are too slow IME. You can feel a sort of tension or charge building up in the air, then a spark that ignites the movement.

[Quigga]

Ofc, works with people and other objects too.