Ting Jin (Listening), Pts. 1 & 2 — Clear Tai Chi

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Re: Ting Jin (Listening), Pts. 1 & 2 — Clear Tai Chi

Postby marvin8 on Wed Aug 10, 2022 9:14 am

Steve James wrote:Tcc may differ in how it focuses on listening (ting), and how it trains it, and even how it uses it --but the reason for it seems straightforward to me. A student needs to learn how because "tcc" doesn't work without it.

Yes, I meant you may have covered it. A simple concept, but with depth.

I say, "You listen (with or without touch)," not to argue a point. But to point out, it's common for highly skilled fighters to setup, listen, then KO their opponent with a punch being the first and only contact.

Steve James wrote:Hmm, there's also "dongjin."

Not speaking for Taiji. High level fighters understand how an opponent generates their power, where their weight or center is, how to close lines of attack, control the center, how to change/neutralize when the opponent is double weighted, etc.
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Re: Ting Jin (Listening), Pts. 1 & 2 — Clear Tai Chi

Postby Steve James on Wed Aug 10, 2022 9:18 am

It's just that people have said touch has nothing to do with it (ting). Everything the master in the video you posted did used touch. So, I continue to fall on the side of touch when it comes to "listening" in the clip. He's obviously illustrating that he has it, but he is demonstrating "fa" on someone he's touching.

But, ok, say he's teaching about using shen, qi, and yi. It can't be learned by watching him. And, he's not explaining how to acquire those things except through touch.
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Re: Ting Jin (Listening), Pts. 1 & 2 — Clear Tai Chi

Postby Steve James on Wed Aug 10, 2022 9:33 am

Not speaking for Taiji. High level fighters understand how an opponent generates their power, where their weight or center is, how to close lines of attack, control the center, how to change/neutralize when the opponent is double weighted, etc.


Yes. I start from Suntzi's Art of War. It's quoted in many tcc Classics and cma treatises. The need for intelligence is crucial, often more important than having a bigger army.

But, I think grapplers have to be conscious of what their opponent is doing while they are in contact, particularly. And, in a submission wrestler's element on the ground, "jin" will have to be augmented with some type of understanding. Otoh, that doesn't mean they'll be the best at push hands -but so what? :)
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Re: Ting Jin (Listening), Pts. 1 & 2 — Clear Tai Chi

Postby windwalker on Wed Aug 10, 2022 10:55 am

Steve James wrote:It's just that people have said touch has nothing to do with it (ting). Everything the master in the video you posted did used touch. So, I continue to fall on the side of touch when it comes to "listening" in the clip. He's obviously illustrating that he has it, but he is demonstrating "fa" on someone he's touching.

But, ok, say he's teaching about using shen, qi, and yi. It can't be learned by watching him. And, he's not explaining how to acquire those things except through touch.


;D maybe you watched a different video...



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQsBJRTPPJc&t=3s


Everyone watching, so when this hand is covered, it is “static”.Don't use it to push! When I want to hit him it’s my YI, QI. YI, QI! YI, QI.

Don't mind him, your finger... When your finger touched him, you look at your own finger.
You look at your fingers and like your lips self-merging, where got so many word!

This means he is making a connection with his "jin" extended though the others body
this is what causes the reaction


No need request his hand to touch up and down, Grab people to fight, No need to.

tingjin :)

Like this, Wherever, Wherever all accurate, wherever all accurate, wherever all accurate, so in your normal practicing, do it like this.

That mean handle the principle, don’t worry about how his hand presses on you, you push...push...push. It’s here equal to pushing you incite to JIN, The one who push not much benefit, Pushed by others learn faster. Pushed by others learn faster, so we stop here, See it?


He does talk about "tingjin" just not by name :)

At 8:35 the reaction is not caused by touch....
The opponent is reacting to what he feels directed by the teachers "qi" expressed
"though" his fingers guided by his "yi" intent

The teachers body is following what has already happened...

Image

Mr Bai, and me some yrs. back,,,
Mr Bai the one in the clip being demoed on...

good guy, has skill

Knowing Mr Bai, the one being demoed on for most people they would not be able to make him move like this,,
but they could try ;D

The teacher is pretty good, expressing things at his level of understand and ability,,,nice demo :)
Last edited by windwalker on Wed Aug 10, 2022 12:42 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Ting Jin (Listening), Pts. 1 & 2 — Clear Tai Chi

Postby Steve James on Wed Aug 10, 2022 11:46 am

He does talk about "tingjin" just not by name :)


Ah, you mean :) he's just saying what you mean differently. OK. I have no problem with people watching and making their own interpretations.
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Re: Ting Jin (Listening), Pts. 1 & 2 — Clear Tai Chi

Postby marvin8 on Sun Aug 21, 2022 8:54 pm

marvin8 wrote:However, one can listen without requiring touch (e.g., outside of bridging or grappling range), offering no resistance.

If one listens, adheres and sticks to their opponent's energy before making contact, they can defeat their opponent from a superior position—which is often the case in a well-rounded style fighter vs a grappler..

Clips of a Tai Chi man listening (or feeling, sensing) to an opponent, without touch in a fight, not a demo under demo conditions/rules. Tai Chi guy starts from outside touch range, then finishes. From "Real street fight- Oldman Taichi vs Thug,"

Tai Chi man: 1) bends over to pick something up 2) listens to opponent stepping forward with left foot 3) yields by rising, hop stepping back with right foot with left foot landing at an angle, while pushing (e.g., repulse monkey) into opponent's weak angle.

Image

Tai Chi man: 1) listens to opponent bend over, try to pick something up, rise and shift weight to back foot 2) follows by stepping with left foot and pushes opponent back and down.

Image

Tai Chi man: 1) listens to opponent bend over, try to pick something up, rise, step with right foot and turn towards him 2) follows by stepping with left foot and pushes opponent back and down.

Image
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Re: Ting Jin (Listening), Pts. 1 & 2 — Clear Tai Chi

Postby cloudz on Mon Aug 22, 2022 2:02 am

just take a look at this mess of a thread
a topic that is so basic and fundamental to tcc.

of course it exists in other arts and people in other arts.
tcc however, does specialises in its practice and utility

but we're not fucking aliens, and it isn't really rocket science either.
Last edited by cloudz on Mon Aug 22, 2022 2:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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