Taiji Jin 太極勁

[windwalker]

Clip outlining the understanding of "jin"



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGEP5X78G1w&t=445s

what is said and shown by this teacher, very consistent among all teachers showing the same things
explained in slightly different ways...

[windwalker]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2meudZummw&t=632s



talks about what people "see" watching , and what those there "feel" experiencing ...

touch a beginning level

Mentions "tingjin" as something that is also trained ie the ability to sense "jin"

Thailand, nice people, good food...

[cloudz]

yea, have seen him spar
his 'taiji jin' was irrelevant

jin just means force
whilst there ARE qualities of force
what the difference is highlighted by so many clips is the way it's demonstrated.

when you get hit.. force is force
I have 'the artist' in me, and a like to refine and all the rest of it.
but I am under no illusions, and honestly, as a friend, I would tell you not to be either.

[Bao]

Yeah, I've watched the clips a couple of times. He is enthusiastic and speaks a lot, nothing wrong with that.

So let's condense it a bit.

Neigong ---> Neijin ---> "jin skills" (tingjin etc)

So according to Mr Liang, when you practice neigong, you develop jin, which you in turn, can use to develop more special jins or skills based on neijin.

Yeah, that's one way of putting it I guess. However, although the neijin in Taijquan, or Taijijin, is a result of Taiji practice, and, Taiji is based on neigong (internal practice to develop internal skill), taijiquan has its specific principles and specific progress of development that should not be confused with general neigong. The type of neijin developed in Taiji, that is called taijijin, is more or less a natural consequence of long time correct taiji practice. Taijijin is a certain type of strength and quality that permeates everything the Taiji practitioner does by merely maintaining the Taijji principles and the integrity of his Taiji Shenfa (body method).

I would argue though, that different "jin skills" found in Taijiquan, are not necessary a consequence of, or developed from, a "general" Taijijin. The Taijijin should still be there, in whatever type of skill or jin the practitioner deals with, but the development of various skills still demand their own specific practice and context. You will not develop excellent tingjin or dongjin skills by itself in a vacuum, they need their own understanding developed from specific methods of practice. There are many kinds of skills in Taiji that need specific practice in a proper context. Some of them don't require a developed taijijin or shenfa.

I just wanted to point this out as it might sound like, by what various teachers say, that you could develop all sorts of skills by merely basic taiji practice as forms, stances and fundamental push hands drills. But this is just not the case.

[cloudz]

tingjin and dongjin are skill applicable to force and not qualities of force

listening TO force
understanding OF force

'taiji jin'

long or short release for example - agreed are a result of taiji specific practice
then there's peng jin and ji jin, these too can be described as qualities, expressions, types - choose your terms

we feel and are aware of our force internally but direct it and issue it externally
so how about differentiating between the two eh ?

sheesh.
otherwise what's the point of claiming you do an 'internal' martial art anyway.
things like peng and an are expressions of neijin

the inner direction does not necessarily have to match the (external body) orientation or direction

[Bao]

tingjin and dongjin are skill applicable to force and not qualities of force
listening TO force
understanding OF force

I would say both. They are both about the relationship between your own body and the opponent's body, so they both require certain body states. You understand force by listening to it.

In order to really "listen" and continue to listen your need to attach yourself to the opponent lightly (nian, stick) yet keep your own shenfa connected and balanced.

long or short release for example - agreed are a result of taiji specific practice
then there's peng jin and ji jin, these too can be described as qualities, expressions, types - choose your terms

Nothing to disagree about.


BTW, when I use "jin" I don't only refer to the most common ones. You can find many different concepts labelled "jin" through different teachers from different traditions and through older literature.


From ANSWERING QUESTIONS ABOUT TAIJI (TAIJI DA WEN) by Chen Weiming.
https://brennantranslation.wordpress.co ... ji-da-wen/

太極拳之勁
ON TAIJI BOXING’S ENERGIES

[91]
問太極之勁。略分幾種意思。
To outline the energies in Taiji, they divide into how many distinct concepts?
答就余所知者。約有粘勁。化勁　提勁　放勁　借勁　截勁　捲勁　入勁　抖擻勁數種。
The only ones I know about are sticking, neutralizing, lifting, releasing, borrowing, intercepting, rolling, penetrating, and shaking.

[92]
問何謂粘勁。
What is sticking energy?
答粘住敵人之臂。或輕粘之。或重粘之。不使之丢脫。是謂粘勁。
Sticking to the opponent’s arm, be it lightly or heavily, and not allowing him to break connection or get away.

[93]
問何謂化勁。
What is neutralizing energy?
答粘住敵人。彼若用力來推。則粘而化之。大槪直來之力。用曲綫左右引之。使變其方向。是謂化勁。
When you are sticking to an opponent, if he forcefully pushes, then stick to it and neutralize it. Generally the power of an attack will be in a straight line and you will use a curve to draw it off to the left or right, causing its direction to change.

[94]
問何謂提勁。
What is lifting energy?
答粘住敵人之臂。彼若用力上翻。則隨之上起。使之脚跟提起。是謂提勁。
When sticking to an opponent’s arm, if he uses effort to turn it over upward, I follow it by lifting upward, causing his heels to lift.

[95]
問何謂放勁。
What is releasing energy?
答敵脚跟提起。身不穩時。則隨其傾側之方向而放之。則毫不費力。而跌出必遠。是謂放勁。太極拳論云。蓄勁如張弓。發勁如放箭。敵提起時。我勁已蓄。隨其方向。沈着鬆淨。去如放箭。孫子曰。勢如擴弩。節如發機。卽此意也。
Once the opponent’s heels lift and his body is no longer stable, I release energy along the direction he is leaning, and without the slightest effort he is made to stumble far away. A Taiji Boxing essay [Understanding How to Practice] says: “Store power like drawing a bow. Issue power like loosing an arrow.” When the opponent lifts, my energy is already stored. I follow along with his direction, sinking and loosening completely, and send him away like loosing an arrow. Sunzi said [Art of War, chapter 5]: “The power is like a loaded crossbow. The moment is like a flick of the trigger.” This is exactly the idea.

[96]
問何謂借勁。
What is borrowing energy?
答敵若前推。則借其前推之力而採之。敵若後扯。則借其後扯之力而放之。左右上下皆然。是謂借勁。
If an opponent pushes forward, borrow the power of his push and pull him. If he pulls back, borrow the power of his pull and push him. For left and right or up and down, it is the same. [Borrowing energy just means you adopt the same direction he’s going in and then give him a loan of four ounces.]

[97]
問何謂截勁。
What is intercepting energy?
答敵若用拳來擊。不及變化。則用截粘。截勁者。卽碰勁也。一碰卽跌出。此非功夫深者不能也。
If an opponent attacks with a punch and it is too late to adjust, then intercept and stick. Intercepting energy means “knocking energy”: once there is contact, he stumbles away. One whose skill is not deep will not be able to do this.

[98]
問何謂捲勁。
What is rolling energy?
答拳到敵身。如鎚鑽之前進。是謂捲勁。
Punching to the opponent’s body with your fist spiraling like a drill.

[99]
問何謂入勁。
What is penetrating energy?
答掌貼敵身。氣往下沈。掌一閃動。其勁直入內。五臟震動。必受重傷。是謂入勁。
With your palm sticking to the opponent’s body, your energy sinks downward and your palm makes a sudden movement. The energy penetrates directing into him, jarring his organs and inevitably resulting in serious injury.

[100]
問何謂抖擻勁。
What is shaking energy?
答敵若由背後擊來。無暇轉身。則身一抖擻。彼必跌出。此則非到神妙之地不能也。是謂抖擻勁。
If an opponent attacks from behind and there is no time to turn around, give your body a shake, and he will surely stumble away. If your skill is not at a very high level, you will not be able to do this.

[101]
問勁與着有何分別。
What is the distinction between energy and technique?
答着乃變化之法也。勁卽運入着之中。着有萬而勁則一。無論何着。勁是一箇。惟用時之意不同。故勁亦隨之而變。
Techniques are the methods of change. Energy is what moves inside a technique. A technique can be done in many ways but an energy can only be done in one. Regardless of the technique, there is only one energy to it, but if the intent becomes different when it is applied, then the energy changes along with the change in technique. [In other words, if you switch techniques, you can still use the same energy, but if you switch energies, you also have to switch techniques.]

[102]
問勁與力有何分別。
What is the distinction between energy and effort?
答力是生來本有。勁是功夫練出。生來本有之力。是一種生力。譬如生鐵。未經煆煉。功夫練出之勁。譬如煉鐵而已成鋼。古語云。力不敵功。功卽練出之勁也。然各種拳派。均是煆煉。而煉出之勁則又不同。太極拳是鬆散練出。乃柔帶剛之眞內勁也。凡堅硬練出者。鬆散無意之時。則勁不存在。被人猛擊。不免受傷。而鬆散練出者。鬆散無意之時。勁仍存留。其氣自然充滿全身。無絲毫之間斷。雖被人擊。不致受傷。
Effort is what you are born with. Energy is a trained skill. Effort is a kind of raw strength, like pig-iron in that it has not yet been smelted and refined, whereas the skilled energy that comes through training is like smelted iron that has been made into steel. As an old saying goes, “Strength is not equal to skill.” This skill means the trained energy. While all boxing styles have their refinements, their energies are not trained in the same way. Taiji Boxing trains by loosening, thus generating the authentic internal power of softness leading hardness. For one who trains hard energy, during a moment of inattention the energy goes away, and if he is at that time attacked fiercely by an opponent, he will unavoidably be injured. If you train loose energy, then during a moment of inattention the energy remains, naturally filling your whole body without the slightest gap anywhere, and so even if you are attacked at that moment, it will not result in injury.

Note that when he speaks about "releasing energy", he uses fangjin and not fajin. "放" or "fang", means "place". The same character as in "ti fang" - "Lift and place", or "lift and let go" as some people translate it.

[cloudz]

take ji for example

there's no reason at all that it can't be issued in a downward trajectory (direction) for example
in fact the first form I learnt did this

the thing about 'the directions' is they are called cardinal.. what does that mean?

well I think contextually it means something like proto type, or something like 'proto - typical'
the simplest/ basic way of combining inner and outer force

but for practical and usage purposes that is not fixed in stone
so let's say your body can move forward whilst you lu with your arms up and back

things start to combine, inner and outer can mix and match.

my disagreement with what you wrote was your assertion about direction
no more no less really

I didn't even watch these clips !!
I've seen enough of the guy to not need to.

I like him and what he does as well as his lineage.
their small frame is pretty cool.

I also feel I'm past the point of reading and re reading these descriptions of energy and force.
Have been doing it for years, and practicing for years
If i don't already know what I'm saying is intuitively true, then I've missed the mark.

I do my best to not lecture or assert on things I don't understand or have confirmed with personal experience.
and I have ALWAYS questioned authority.

None of what's in that quote addresses what I disagreed about, so why should I bother to read it, when I have read these things more times than I can remember ?

this isn't academia corner, this is martial arts man

[everything]

I like that when he's asked "why" the person cannot adjust to his fajin type of push vs. his normal push, he starts to answer, then says "well actually I don't know..." but tries to say he relaxes more.

[windwalker]

yea, have seen him spar
his 'taiji jin' was irrelevant

jin just means force
whilst there ARE qualities of force
what the difference is highlighted by so many clips is the way it's demonstrated.

when you get hit.. force is force
I have 'the artist' in me, and a like to refine and all the rest of it.
but I am under no illusions, and honestly, as a friend, I would tell you not to be either.

As a "friend" I hope while being friends one can still have differences...

I "share" clips reflecting my own interest, practice and view points with others feeling they too might also find them interesting.

but I am under no illusions, and honestly, as a friend, I would tell you not to be either

mmm, considering my experiences, background, and small skill....would it not be better to consider our experiences and back grounds might be quite different.

There is a body of work, by noted teachers that some teachers like this one making very public, was once held as something not to be shared...

The "illusions" might be the perception of what taiji has become now, to what it was back then..

Teachers like Adam, this one, and many others are sharing some of their work...attempting to preserve what might be called historical skill sets and practices.

you shared some of your work found it interesting...reflecting your practice and view point...


some of mine, a little different


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSmKZ7h_jA0

[everything]

really interesting, thanks for sharing.

[cloudz]

so I got round to watching them.. they seem to be a couple years old
I do like him and he's pretty sincere and open, talks well and seems pretty grounded.
Some decent explanations going on overall, can't really fault him too much on that side of it - in of themselves.

the demonstrations though, were a bit meh, and that's were it all falls down for me. It's clear Mizner has learnt from him and uses some of the material - LDH was a teacher of his - Mizner does a way better job of demonstrating them i would say. this guy martial man hosts a big get together so they are kind of in the job of joint promotion. I mean that's ok, but, for me, it suffers from being the same old, same old stuff that isn't as profound as it's presented to be in my opinion. And it certainly won't work in real altercations without learning 'how to fight' - in whatever sporting format it may be. To his eternal credit he admits as much.

To a particular question on a demo he chuckles and says he doesn't know how that works. well under real intelligent and trained pressure it wouldn't as is, so you can say it doesn't actually really work for fighting. So what does it actually work for? If it was that easy he would be out there demonstrating it's genuine utility in a sporting format and maybe perhaps getting more out of it than his current martial arts business affords him, maybe. No point breaking the illusion though is there, as he's probably doing great from people happy to pay him to learn body tricks essentially.

the renowned fighting art of TJQ, reduced to an art of body tricks
sorry, but that just sucks
incredibly, incredibly hard

even more so given the rep of YSH, where his lineage originates