How to transfer center of gravity in Angular Taiji, etc.

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Re: How to transfer center of gravity in Angular Taiji, etc.

Postby wayne hansen on Tue Aug 23, 2022 2:08 am

I like my rock
It will take me another 10 years of training to reach the level of a coward
There is a reason professors don’t explain pure math to kindergarten students
The continuous form has 3 times the movement the circular form does but in the same format
I don’t explain it because it is just too hard
I didn’t mean to post on the wrong thread that was just the folly of an old addled mind
I am trying to answer honestly and it may not be directed to you but to others who are reading
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Re: How to transfer center of gravity in Angular Taiji, etc.

Postby cloudz on Tue Aug 23, 2022 2:01 pm

looking at CTH doing that form.. well that Hong Kong Wu form already has a lot more movement(s) than the newer form modified by Wu Chien-ch'uan. Personally I would liken it to the old Yang middle frame - maybe 2 times more movements isn't beyond the realm when comparing say some Jiang Hou middle frame I've seen to YCF Large frame. Mostly transitional, some movements performed differently - a palm strike being substituted for a downward elbow - to offer one example. After all, all tai chi derived from Yang is based on the same fundamental postures and follow the same framework.

But 3 times more movement than the CTH form within the same framework - it sounds quite excessive to me, but it doesn't really matter; if you say so, so be it. Let's hope you can remember and give enough practice to all the forms and sets you have learnt over the years.. I don't feel at all that you have some complex knowledge I can't grasp or understand, but if you think that, more power to you !

I believe that, actually, if you truly understand and know something you can explain it fairly simply. But ok, if it's condescension you want to hit back with it's fine..Being an Aussie I thought you could handle a little banter, clearly my having some fun with you hurt your feelings a bit. If you want an apology I'm more than willing to give it - sorry if I overstepped the mark in any earlier posts. It just came across as being evasive to what to me was a fairly simple and basic question. You have covered it now, and I don't really care to know any more about it- other than to check if it does or did actually exist.. If there is such a thing I'm sure CTH son would know about it, so I can find out pretty easily. I've always been a curious George regards things tai chi.

I'm not sure what you think I was asking you to explain about it.. Not a breath by breath account of all the moves; just a kind of basic answer of what 'continuous actually designates. It seemed to come down to more moves or another way of moving. If there's more complexity - I'm not after details.. simply what makes it so.. if it wasn't 'more' in some way it wouldn't come after circular in that progression. Again no specifics by way of details were asked for from you.

But it's curious that this progression you cited goes from a simpler way of moving (square), to the circular way of moving.. and then it deviates to more content - and that's called continuous. I think it's good to question what's being said, otherwise for all anyone knows it could be dubious information.

So anyway, now you seem to be suggesting it's not a different way of moving but more movements - that's what I was asking basically. I'm not that interested in more movements. I think if you know how to move, more movements are neither here nor there. I have and have seen more than enough techniques to satisfy me. having done multiple forms now. And I also think I've, been taught well enough and seen more than enough ways people move in tai chi to satisfy any appetite and lifetime of practice. The internet is awash with tai chi moves and tai chi people moving - big woop right ? One more form has no relevance at all, however complex it may be in terms of the quantity of moves.. Is that even a good thing regarding movements. Dong fast form for example has less moves, but more advanced movement, same with Ma Yueh Liang' fast form, same with Yang Shao Hous small frames/ fast forms. That's the trend so it seems. Quantity of moves in a form is something I moved away from years ago when switching from a longer more involved Chen Pan Ling derived form to his orthodox version. Sometimes less really is more.

I get that explaining certain things can be laborious or too much trouble, that's fine. In a conversation it helps if you explain such things off the bat or answer a little clearer rather than beating around the bush (took you a while but you got there), rather than suggesting one thing one minute, then another in the next breath; hence confusing - it comes off a little suspicious. Be straight up from the get go, the carrots you seem to get off dangling aren't half as special as you seem to think they are; not to me anyway. I just like talking and sharing about tai chi, as you can maybe tell, isn't that what this place is for anyway?
Last edited by cloudz on Tue Aug 23, 2022 3:28 pm, edited 9 times in total.
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Re: How to transfer center of gravity in Angular Taiji, etc.

Postby Steve James on Tue Aug 23, 2022 2:36 pm

that Hong Kong Wu form already has a lot more movement(s) than the newer form modified by Wu Chien-ch'uan.


Um, WCC didn't modify anything -except perhaps his expression Yang style. He and Cheng-fu both went to Shanghai and opened schools there at the same time. True, WCC's style via Yinghua and Ma Yueh-liang does not have a square form. That form was added in HK and other places.

I'd never heard of a circular continuous form. But, I don't really know much at all about the HK Wu/Ng style. Last time I heard, Eddie Ng was still the head of the family style. Anyway, my .02; I always thought the square form was the learning/teaching form. It's robotic, but maybe segmented is clearer. It also helps lead to consistency. After the square form, the movements are smoothed out. To me, that already looks continuous. For example, WCC's daughter was always the standard form demonstrator.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88F3zi_Zx3Q

There probably are other slow hand forms, but they weren't part of the standard curriculum (afaik). But, it's like some Yang styles having fast forms, fighting forms, and other types.
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Re: How to transfer center of gravity in Angular Taiji, etc.

Postby cloudz on Tue Aug 23, 2022 3:38 pm

Hi Steve

It's pretty well accepted that both YCF and WCC modified their families forms around the same time. Apparently, you didn't get the memo ;D
Link: http://www.wustyleuk.com/wustylehistory.html

Excerpt:
Second generation Master Wu Chien Chuan (1870-1942) was employed by the Ching Court in the Palace Battalion of the Imperial Guard. After Emperor Puyi abdicated from the Throne, Master Wu Chien Chuan was recommended by Chief of General Staff, Yin Chuang, to President Li Yuan Hong. In 1914 he was appointed Military Instructor and Martial Arts Advisor to the Eleventh Corps of the Presidential Body Guards. Master Wu Chien Chuan did much to popularise Wu Style Tai Chi Chuan, which is named after him. He was also an accomplished archer and horseman. A very close relationship was maintained with the Yang family and Wu Chien Chuan would often practice push hands with Yang Cheng Fu. He modified his father’s form and created many new ways of utilising the Form in a practical manner, including the use of a narrow circle. Master Wu Chien Chuan established the first Wu's Tai Chi Chuan Academy in Shanghai in 1935 and appointed his son-in-law Master Ma Yueh Liang Vice President.
Last edited by cloudz on Tue Aug 23, 2022 3:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: How to transfer center of gravity in Angular Taiji, etc.

Postby Steve James on Tue Aug 23, 2022 4:29 pm

Yes, but that's not what I meant. WCC "is" the founder of Wu tcc. Wu styles deviate from him, granted his modifications, not the other way around. I.e., he didn't simplify/modify an earlier Wu style; the style is named after him.

Imo, it'd be better to say it's his modification of a prior Yang style (which one? Don't ask me). My point is only which Wu came first. (Of course, not the other Wu/Hao style).
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Re: How to transfer center of gravity in Angular Taiji, etc.

Postby nicklinjm on Tue Aug 23, 2022 5:24 pm

@Steve, are you sure you meant Wu Chien-chuan (Wu Jianquan) as the founder of Wu style taiji? Because pretty much all northern Wu style, including the famous Wang Peisheng, doesn't come from Wu Chien-chuan at all, but instead through Quan You's other senior student Wang Maozhai.

Any discussion of what Wu style looked like before Wu Chien-chuan's modifications would be best off looking at, for example, the northern Wu style groups in Wang Maozhai's hometown in Shandong (Laizhou), who weren't even aware of Wu Chien-chuan's alterations until many decades later.
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Re: How to transfer center of gravity in Angular Taiji, etc.

Postby Steve James on Tue Aug 23, 2022 6:02 pm

Even in the what George cited, it reads.

Master Wu Chien Chuan did much to popularise Wu Style Tai Chi Chuan, which is named after him.


All I'm saying that the name Wu style became associated with WCC -most likely because he was family. Yes, he learned from WQY. If the argument is that the style was named after WQY, and that's why the HK and northern families kept the name, instead of calling it Wang style, that makes sense. Then again, WQY learned Yang style -and all that came afterward was a modification. Just as Yang was a modification of Chen. And, similarly, there are many different "Yang style" variations not from YCF.

I retract my statement that other Wu styles derived from WCC, though. Thanks for the correction.

Question for y'all Northern/HK Wu guys: did WQY invent the square form? I ask because, afaik, neither Chen nor Yang had one. Did Panhou invent it and teach it to WQY? If it was part of the curriculum, was its removal part of the modification?
Last edited by Steve James on Wed Aug 24, 2022 7:29 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: How to transfer center of gravity in Angular Taiji, etc.

Postby wayne hansen on Tue Aug 23, 2022 7:13 pm

No one has upset me I am just answering questions as honestly as i can
No carrots being dangled just telling what I have been shown
One of my Wu teachers had a Yang Ban Hao form that he only showed at demos
Northern Wu is one I don’t understand
Yes less is more
I have a hsing I background so I value simplicity
I learnt Tungs 2 fast forms but don’t practice them now and have never passed them on
Ma,s fast form has never really impressed me as I don’t see anything in it that’s not in the standard form
When I mention the circular continuous form it is just for historical fact
I always hope someone will say yeah I practice that
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Re: How to transfer center of gravity in Angular Taiji, etc.

Postby HotSoup on Wed Aug 24, 2022 12:18 pm

wayne hansen wrote:
There is a reason professors don’t explain pure math to kindergarten students

I don’t explain it because it is just too hard


Implying that everyone is a kindergartener while you hold a PhD on multiple threads just looks arrogant with no apparent reason. Why not try and see if you’re understood?
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Re: How to transfer center of gravity in Angular Taiji, etc.

Postby wayne hansen on Wed Aug 24, 2022 5:19 pm

I was not referring to myself as a PHD
I was talking about the complexity of the form and the understanding someone who had not trained it trying to understand it from where they sit
There are no films of it as far as I know
Those who have trained the circular form should be able t see in the CTH clip where he diverges from the standard form
That divergence is from the circular continuous form
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Re: How to transfer center of gravity in Angular Taiji, etc.

Postby HotSoup on Thu Aug 25, 2022 12:04 am

Thanks for giving it a try! Does its “continuous” nature have more to do with the triple repetition you mentioned or rather the manner of practice (similarly to what’s shown below)?
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Re: How to transfer center of gravity in Angular Taiji, etc.

Postby wayne hansen on Thu Aug 25, 2022 1:48 am

The one you have posted is a version of the circular form
Let’s just say the continuous form has a lot more circles and is application heavy
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Re: How to transfer center of gravity in Angular Taiji, etc.

Postby nicklinjm on Thu Aug 25, 2022 5:31 pm

Just replying to Steve's Q about the square form - the square form was invented by Wu Gongyi, most likely when he was teaching large classes in Hunan in the 1930s. So it only exists in HK lines, not practiced at all in Shanghai or Northern lines.

The Wu family say that the square form is based on what Wu Gongyi learned from Yang Shaohou but I can't see any commonality at all between existing YSH lines and the square form. YMMV.
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Re: How to transfer center of gravity in Angular Taiji, etc.

Postby wayne hansen on Thu Aug 25, 2022 6:42 pm

As I have said before 2 of my Wu teachers did a YSH or YBH form that I only saw when they were doing demos
It had jumping double kicks and cannon fists for fair lady and a very unique needle
It might have been them but it was much like their Wu form
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Re: How to transfer center of gravity in Angular Taiji, etc.

Postby Steve James on Thu Aug 25, 2022 6:44 pm

Thanks nicklinjm. Yeah, it's an efficient teaching method. I've seen other styles that are taught in defined segments. Usually, when the form is learned, the idea is to link them together smoothly. It's just not considered/called a different form.

It does bring up the question of how the first generation (Yang) teachers taught the form to the second generation, and how the method they used to teach the third. I guess I've assumed that it was fairly similar -such as "shift weight to left, raise left arm, palm down, etc., etc., robotically).

Aw snap, I just remembered a teacher I had who just did the form. You started with him and followed as far as you could. He only taught the long form, too. :)
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