your favourite (taiji) application/ technique clips ?

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your favourite (taiji) application/ technique clips ?

Postby cloudz on Wed Aug 31, 2022 1:25 am

hey guys

I'm a bit behind the curve perhaps and not as up as I used to be on what's circulating out there in youtube land regards this topic.
having not been too involved on forums the past few years.

Would be good to see what the readership here considers their ' gold standard'.
Perhaps some of the professional teachers have their own channels etc.

please no push hands skills/ fajin type clips, though martial technique/form application from PH base is more than welcome.

thanks
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Re: your favourite (taiji) application/ technique clips ?

Postby cloudz on Wed Aug 31, 2022 1:51 am

I'll kick off with something from one of my favourite teachers, which I was mentioning in a recent thread
you don't see too many of these; free form/ spontaneous practice:

Last edited by cloudz on Wed Aug 31, 2022 1:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: your favourite (taiji) application/ technique clips ?

Postby Bao on Wed Aug 31, 2022 2:27 am

Personally not a fan of tai chi turned into jumpy point sparring, much more of a traditionalist. Here's something from an old clip, will look for more.

https://youtu.be/CPkGWNOlNA4?t=263

Starting at 4.23
Last edited by Bao on Wed Aug 31, 2022 2:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: your favourite (taiji) application/ technique clips ?

Postby origami_itto on Wed Aug 31, 2022 5:10 am

Bao wrote:Personally not a fan of tai chi turned into jumpy point sparring, much more of a traditionalist. Here's something from an old clip, will look for more.

https://youtu.be/CPkGWNOlNA4?t=263

Starting at 4.23

Not the applications I'd pick but doesn't matter.
What I really like here is that he's not just doing his form and inserting a body. The movements here don't look very much like the form itself.

Instead he's demonstrating the energy of the posture, which I feel is more appropriate for advanced students that understand how he's moving isn't exactly how you'd do your form and won't start modifying their form to make it look like this.

Applications I feel can serve two purposes, they can show you how to do the form or show you how to use the form. Each purpose is useful for a certain stage of development, but in practical use I feel like they are best discarded.
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Re: your favourite (taiji) application/ technique clips ?

Postby Bao on Wed Aug 31, 2022 7:22 am

origami_itto wrote:Not the applications I'd pick but doesn't matter.


Ok.

Things I like is that he sets up an attack and counter the opponent's counter movements. Good strategy.
In the other video he demonstrates iron palm applications and block the opponent's punch by controlling the elbow. Also a very good and useful method.

What he demonstrates is real, genuine Chinese fighting methods. Much of it is stuff that actually works.

What I really like here is that he's not just doing his form and inserting a body. The movements here don't look very much like the form itself.

Instead he's demonstrating the energy of the posture,


Yup. He is demonstrating techniques by using Tai Chi principles and body movement.

which I feel is more appropriate for advanced students that understand how he's moving isn't exactly how you'd do your form and won't start modifying their form to make it look like this.


IDK if I agree that it should be for advanced students. Trying to look exactly as the movements in the form is, IMHO, a mistake. Opponents, they change and move very swiftly. You can't "think" about how to respond, you need to be able to do it instantaneously without thinking. So you really need to adapt to an opponent in a formless, shapeless manner, mirroring their movements with your own. Be like water my friend. ;D

Applications I feel can serve two purposes, they can show you how to do the form or show you how to use the form. Each purpose is useful for a certain stage of development, but in practical use I feel like they are best discarded.


IMO, for fighting the forms should be discarded as they look as a whole. When you fight, you use only a part of the forms, partial shapes, and change to something else when the opponent changes. And a real opponent will keep changing. IMO, this kind of thinking and practice should already be there at the beginning level. Otherwise you will get a wrong appreciation about how to really use tai chi principles in practice. It might be hard to change, or take time to change into something new, if you are taught wrongly at start. IMHO.
Last edited by Bao on Wed Aug 31, 2022 7:30 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: your favourite (taiji) application/ technique clips ?

Postby everything on Wed Aug 31, 2022 8:05 am

does xinyiliuhebafa count?
https://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php ... d1cb267b9d

yes he does fajin, but it seems "acceptable" for whatever reason to those who haven't experienced this "power", perhaps because he puts it in the context of some technique as well (on a tangent, maybe this is a key reason why people who haven't felt this have trouble ... when it's shown but so isolated in a demo). still only in push hands semi-cooperative context. all punches and throws and so on restrained.
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Re: your favourite (taiji) application/ technique clips ?

Postby robert on Wed Aug 31, 2022 12:38 pm

Not gold standard, but I think this is a reasonable push hands demo. This is the way I usually learn applications - within push hands. The partner is cooperative, but not overly compliant.

The method of practicing this boxing art is nothing more than opening and closing, passive and active. The subtlety of the art is based entirely upon their alternations. Chen Xin
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Re: your favourite (taiji) application/ technique clips ?

Postby Bao on Wed Aug 31, 2022 1:35 pm

This one is sort of interesting as Ian here improvises a whole demonstration on the go against a MMA practitioner he hasn't even met before. If you haven't watched it before, don't forget to put on the sound.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDIb9TWy-78

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Re: your favourite (taiji) application/ technique clips ?

Postby origami_itto on Wed Aug 31, 2022 3:26 pm

Bao wrote:
origami_itto wrote:
which I feel is more appropriate for advanced students that understand how he's moving isn't exactly how you'd do your form and won't start modifying their form to make it look like this.


IDK if I agree that it should be for advanced students. Trying to look exactly as the movements in the form is, IMHO, a mistake. Opponents, they change and move very swiftly. You can't "think" about how to respond, you need to be able to do it instantaneously without thinking. So you really need to adapt to an opponent in a formless, shapeless manner, mirroring their movements with your own. Be like water my friend. ;D


I don't disagree with what you're saying but I think you missed my point.

This is applications to demonstrate ideas about how to use taijiquan.

Applications that are intended to help beginners learn how to do the form correctly are less directly martially applicable, and yes they rely on the partner reacting in particular ways. The whole idea is to have the application idea serve as a pneumonic to help the beginner learn how to do the form correctly.

The kind of application demonstrated in your clip is the next step, demonstrating how the energy developed in the form training is present even when the outer shape is different.

The next step is forgetting all of these prescribed responses and reacting formlessly.
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Re: your favourite (taiji) application/ technique clips ?

Postby marvin8 on Wed Aug 31, 2022 3:47 pm

Allan Featherstone
Sep 22, 2014

Ren Zhongxin teaching application

From Comments:
Allan Featherstone 3 years ago wrote:At the start of the clip his student does Jin Gang Dao Dui (Buddha attendant pounds mortar) from chen taijiquan. Ren Zhongxin is known to teach Chen taijiquan, Wu taijiquan and Sun taijiquan.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZ5ULWxXY5k
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Re: your favourite (taiji) application/ technique clips ?

Postby nicklinjm on Wed Aug 31, 2022 5:45 pm

@Marvin8, you beat me to it - was about to post Ren Zhongxin as well, he is my gold standard, he really shows how nei jin (a) nullifies quite a lot of common attacks and (b) allows him to break other people's structure / launch them out at will.
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Re: your favourite (taiji) application/ technique clips ?

Postby windwalker on Wed Aug 31, 2022 6:51 pm

nicklinjm wrote:@Marvin8, you beat me to it - was about to post Ren Zhongxin as well, he is my gold standard, he really shows how nei jin (a) nullifies quite a lot of common attacks and (b) allows him to break other people's structure / launch them out at will.



The teacher seems very open, allowing others to feel his his teaching....taking care not hurt those wanting to see how things work....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oi-2LW9UQRQ
Last edited by windwalker on Wed Aug 31, 2022 7:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: your favourite (taiji) application/ technique clips ?

Postby wayne hansen on Wed Aug 31, 2022 10:23 pm

Lees form was the first I learnt all his applications are out of the form
Sinclair is always good
The rest are pretty ordinary
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Re: your favourite (taiji) application/ technique clips ?

Postby cloudz on Thu Sep 01, 2022 1:17 am

Bao wrote:Personally not a fan of tai chi turned into jumpy point sparring, much more of a traditionalist.


that's a little unfair of a characterisation, though I take the point the footwork maybe more sporty than traditional.

'jumpy' is a bit OTT when compared to say a TKD Olympic match or similar. but training to have some springiness can be useful if you want or need to move greater distances or jump.. Neils barely getting off the ground there, he's just moving around a bit/ training to move around. you make for a harder target that way.

and this isn't 'point sparring'. One guy is feeding the other reacting. it's one step technique training, that all traditional arts use, only he's reacting freely and spontaneously. Does it look more like sparring than normal, probably. But that's not because points are involved. It's would be fairer to describe it as a sports style sparring drill perhaps. I'd also add, that's a far less terrible thing than folks may envisage, but ok. not your cup of tea no problem. sport doesn't have to be your bag.
But The either or thing though - that's what's not my bag. I'll take what I see as useful and that's it.

Personally I like to have both this type of active footwork and a more static / reactive type, as well as perhaps less vertical movement (though I don't see any particular excessive amount here - keeping movement closer to the ground and horizontal. I like to be flexible, versatile and as multi dimensional as possible.

this kind of active mobility is really useful, it lends itself to agile reactions. Being too static can give yourself problems and should be used situationally - as all footwork. And of course it may just be that someone goes for you when you're not expecting it. Footwork is something i like to focus a fair bit - it's a pretty big deal IMO, especially if you're a smaller guy, which I am.
Last edited by cloudz on Thu Sep 01, 2022 3:29 am, edited 9 times in total.
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Re: your favourite (taiji) application/ technique clips ?

Postby cloudz on Thu Sep 01, 2022 1:40 am

robert wrote:Not gold standard, but I think this is a reasonable push hands demo. This is the way I usually learn applications - within push hands. The partner is cooperative, but not overly compliant.




I really like using a push hands base too, for chin-na and wrestling stuff, I've always found it preferable. and don't misunderstand the compliant thing - in technique training, that's how it should be. It's how we learn certain fundamental and important things and ingrain the motor control for correct and optimal technique. Then you devise and use ways to test it and make it harder to do, more realistic. Judo and BJJ, Chinese wrestling, Karate etc. are prime examples. TCC should be no different, but it's become a thing.. a point of contention. Sometimes for fair reason.

thanks for the share. He has nice technique(s)
Last edited by cloudz on Thu Sep 01, 2022 3:42 am, edited 4 times in total.
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