your favourite (taiji) application/ technique clips ?

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Re: your favourite (taiji) application/ technique clips ?

Postby BruceP on Thu Sep 08, 2022 11:39 am

cloudz wrote:thanks for the share Bruce, your guy fought hard, that was pretty intense.
kudos to him for getting in there.


Yep

That's what Tai Chi's basic, practical fighting method looks like in the format he's applying it to. It aint pretty and there's no "fall guy" to make it pretty.
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Re: your favourite (taiji) application/ technique clips ?

Postby wayne hansen on Thu Sep 08, 2022 12:49 pm

Grumpiness has nothing to do with age and that statement is ageist
By just a fall guy
I mean they go in not trying to be balanced ready to respond
They go in drop all there energy waiting to be thrown
If they also do that in other martial arts they are also fall guys
They don’t do it in boxing ,wrestling or the bjj I have seen
I accept that if you think that is the way of training we don’t have a common language
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Re: your favourite (taiji) application/ technique clips ?

Postby cloudz on Thu Sep 08, 2022 10:46 pm

So in Judo and Bjj for example one person doesn't allow another to do the techniques on them without any resistance ?
'ready to change' has nothing to do with anything..

How is the guy in Judo or Chinese wrestling being thrown not 'the fall guy'.
If they did certain things with their bodies differently (as your suggestions) the techniques would be impeded. How is it different.
different techniques would be stuffed in different ways!
this happens in all martial arts.

why are you even arguing the point, it's ridiculous Wayne.

How about Aikido - that also uses the grabbing arms method shown in that first clip a lot - his second shows more from strikes.
Karate

yes 'fall guys' are everywhere, it's training - in Boxing sometimes people just stand there with a guard, do one defence and LET the other practice a combo without impediment. Why can't they move out the way or parry deflect, cover up or whatever - or to strike back. no they ALLOW the other person to practice something without interference. They employ action(s) that are intended to allow techniques to be practiced unimpeded. sometimes one or two things are added to CHAIN techniques.

Same in wrestling - people will just 'stand there' in a crouched position and let another guy single leg them, no change in weight distribution. they could sprawl but they don't. they could do something else but they don't.

if you disagree, I don't know what planet you have been living on.
Of course also applies to all TCMA.

For the grabbing method to be useful to work (technique can be applied) force has to be fed a certain way. It doesn't really have anything to do with his balance or other factors. He's connected and stiff trying to hold the guy in place, not allowing him to move - we should all know how that works and how it allows so many techniques to work. There is a time and place for technique practice; in all martial arts. Different techniques require different actions from both parties. It's part of the learning process.

It's the common language across martial arts - for technique practice - it's you who is lacking a common understanding of this. ::)
Last edited by cloudz on Thu Sep 08, 2022 11:19 pm, edited 9 times in total.
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Re: your favourite (taiji) application/ technique clips ?

Postby GrahamB on Fri Sep 09, 2022 1:27 am

BruceP wrote:Fixed

I've only ever had my training partners practice 9 Temple qigong for their first year in developing tjq body and fighting method as it's all one really needs for applying tjq's ideas in a practical/functional manner.

Here's one of my training partners with nine months of training (blue gloves) in his first MMA match demonstrating Corn Grinding, Mirror Polishing, Advance-Retreat, Prayer Wheel, etc against a Team Quest guy (red gloves) who had 4 years of collegiate wrestling in addition to the training he he'd done with Randy Couture. The match went to decision after 3 five-minute rounds of non-stop this:

https://www.veed.io/view/0b61980a-b6b9- ... d3608203c6


It says:

This video has been archived.
The video is not available to watch at this time
Chai-drinking ninja.
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Re: your favourite (taiji) application/ technique clips ?

Postby wayne hansen on Fri Sep 09, 2022 2:07 am

You just don’t get what I mean cloudz
But that’s OK
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Re: your favourite (taiji) application/ technique clips ?

Postby wayne hansen on Fri Sep 09, 2022 2:07 am

You just don’t get what I mean cloudz
But that’s OK
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Re: your favourite (taiji) application/ technique clips ?

Postby cloudz on Fri Sep 09, 2022 5:59 am

you are right Wayne I don't...
I don't see anything that different in the clip than so many others to be singled out for that critique.

you didn't like it, for whatever reason, you're entitled to. no worries. but the reasoning doesn't make sense to me (in comparison); I can't see how it can be singled out. that's my point I guess. I enjoyed his techniques... maybe made all the more by the size of partner in comparison. that's the main thing for me - the technique itself, the partner is there to feed him not fight him.

the partner get's his turn to be fed, and then training should progress to sparring drills and sparring. that's how I expect things to be.
these little complaints don't really matter in that context. a fall guy is a fall guy is a fall guy.

so no, I thought the complaint petty and misses the point/ context of the demonstration; you're right, I just don't really get it at all.
that's It's ok to disagree; you're right.

appreciate you saying it though.
Last edited by cloudz on Fri Sep 09, 2022 6:17 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: your favourite (taiji) application/ technique clips ?

Postby BruceP on Fri Sep 09, 2022 9:42 am

GrahamB wrote:
It says:

This video has been archived.
The video is not available to watch at this time


Good
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Re: your favourite (taiji) application/ technique clips ?

Postby BruceP on Fri Sep 09, 2022 10:36 am

cloudz wrote: I enjoyed his techniques... maybe made all the more by the size of partner in comparison. that's the main thing for me - the technique itself, the partner is there to feed him not fight him.

the partner get's his turn to be fed, and then training should progress to sparring drills and sparring. that's how I expect things to be.
these little complaints don't really matter in that context. a fall guy is a fall guy is a fall guy


I've stated here more than a few times over the years that tjq has no techniques because the 4 directions and 4 corners are nothing more than ideas which can be applied to anything from smashing an attacker to knitting a sweater. I may have a different thinking on the matter than Wayne, but the approach to developing any kind of tai chi fighting method - as shown in the thousands of clips I've watched - is a waste of time when one tai chi guy shows how awesome they are at tooling their compliant partner, and presenting the work as some sort of fight-relevant applications demo.

In training people who wanted to test their learning in whatever format, we never drilled a single technique because, to my understanding of the art, that's not how tai chi works. And if there was ever a need for a fall guy, I was always the fall guy - offering just enough pressure to make the other person find a way to make the ideas work for them naturally and spontaneously.

To hell with what I can do. It's always more interesting to to see what others are able to develop and apply under pressure. IME people who stick with it develop their 'tokui waza' through that process of forced ownership.

When the guy in the clip I posted started training with our group, I could take him down with one hand. After a year or so, I couldn't take him down to save my life.
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Re: your favourite (taiji) application/ technique clips ?

Postby Bhassler on Fri Sep 09, 2022 8:40 pm

Thanks for the (brief) share, Bruce. I always enjoy seeing your work.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Some other stuff...

Here's Lu Chun, one of Feng's students, having a bit of fun:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJLAspmy7lU

I think this is Wayne's youtube channel (though not Wayne, himself). Though it's not what I personally am aiming for, I can appreciate the skill on display:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rv8d4Y-otGQ

Chen Yu is fun to watch:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGRXaYbUCs4

I feel that Feng's stuff has worn well, over the years. It's largely standard demo fare, but if you understand the context there's a lot there that gets applied more practically elsewhere in the system:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DoGIPgvI_5c

Though he's not strictly a taiji guy, I think Lu Baochun also has some entertaining stuff. He seems to use taiji as more of a movement and energy refinement practice, with applications coming more from Baji and Pigua, etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LS97-zPVhGo
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Re: your favourite (taiji) application/ technique clips ?

Postby windwalker on Sun Sep 11, 2022 8:52 am

push hands format / interesting apps


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6E9lGowYyI

The famous Hong Junsheng Chen taijiquan successor Liu Chengde, a generation of martial arts master.
Octogenarian can royal, preach martial example. Introduce appreciation of his real kung fu. --
Chinese folk sports, internal training and external training.
Last edited by windwalker on Sun Sep 11, 2022 8:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: your favourite (taiji) application/ technique clips ?

Postby cloudz on Mon Sep 12, 2022 2:23 am

BruceP wrote:
cloudz wrote: I enjoyed his techniques... maybe made all the more by the size of partner in comparison. that's the main thing for me - the technique itself, the partner is there to feed him not fight him.

the partner get's his turn to be fed, and then training should progress to sparring drills and sparring. that's how I expect things to be.
these little complaints don't really matter in that context. a fall guy is a fall guy is a fall guy


I've stated here more than a few times over the years that tjq has no techniques because the 4 directions and 4 corners are nothing more than ideas which can be applied to anything from smashing an attacker to knitting a sweater. I may have a different thinking on the matter than Wayne, but the approach to developing any kind of tai chi fighting method - as shown in the thousands of clips I've watched - is a waste of time when one tai chi guy shows how awesome they are at tooling their compliant partner, and presenting the work as some sort of fight-relevant applications demo.

In training people who wanted to test their learning in whatever format, we never drilled a single technique because, to my understanding of the art, that's not how tai chi works. And if there was ever a need for a fall guy, I was always the fall guy - offering just enough pressure to make the other person find a way to make the ideas work for them naturally and spontaneously.

To hell with what I can do. It's always more interesting to to see what others are able to develop and apply under pressure. IME people who stick with it develop their 'tokui waza' through that process of forced ownership.

When the guy in the clip I posted started training with our group, I could take him down with one hand. After a year or so, I couldn't take him down to save my life.


I agree with everything.
martial arts is a funny old game.

we could demarcate between demonstration and say practice.
are techniques worth learning, practicing and training.. I would say a resounding yes.

that guy was demonstrating on a student - that could happen in any number/ all martial arts. But it's no different than would happen in practice, or learning/ teaching, so on.
A black belt bjj guy is going to dominate guys with a year or two, never mind a learner.

sometimes it's just worth enjoying something for what it is.
There's body method and principle based 'technique' (fa-jin.. yielding, redirection, neutralising), then there's the orthodox kind of technique - an arm bar or crank. a roundhouse kick a hip throw so on and so forth. TCC perhaps has more of the former going on than most arts..

Honestly, I think that's where a lot of the 'confusion' comes in.

thanks Bruce
Last edited by cloudz on Mon Sep 12, 2022 2:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: your favourite (taiji) application/ technique clips ?

Postby BruceP on Wed Sep 14, 2022 9:03 am

Bhassler wrote:Thanks for the (brief) share, Bruce. I always enjoy seeing your work


No problem, B

You're referring to the breathwork clip or the push-hands/fast wrestling clip? I'm not sure which clips -if any - were loading until I check them hours after posting them.

Might need to get a yt channel
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Re: your favourite (taiji) application/ technique clips ?

Postby windwalker on Fri Sep 23, 2022 3:31 pm

Teachers demonstrating their skills


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RiMFQKdXNk
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Re: your favourite (taiji) application/ technique clips ?

Postby origami_itto on Fri Sep 23, 2022 9:18 pm

windwalker wrote:Teachers demonstrating their skills


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RiMFQKdXNk


Good stuff.

That tall red haired dude has come out tho the Tampa Bay retreat. Not bad for a beginner
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