your favourite (taiji) application/ technique clips ?

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Re: your favourite (taiji) application/ technique clips ?

Postby cloudz on Thu Sep 01, 2022 1:45 am

Bao wrote:This one is sort of interesting as Ian here improvises a whole demonstration on the go against a MMA practitioner he hasn't even met before. If you haven't watched it before, don't forget to put on the sound.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDIb9TWy-78




yea good one, I recall enjoying this clip quite a lot when it surfaced.
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Re: your favourite (taiji) application/ technique clips ?

Postby cloudz on Thu Sep 01, 2022 1:46 am

everything wrote:does xinyiliuhebafa count?
https://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php ... d1cb267b9d

yes he does fajin, but it seems "acceptable" for whatever reason to those who haven't experienced this "power", perhaps because he puts it in the context of some technique as well (on a tangent, maybe this is a key reason why people who haven't felt this have trouble ... when it's shown but so isolated in a demo). still only in push hands semi-cooperative context. all punches and throws and so on restrained.



Yep that guy is bad ass! ;D

it's acceptable, because he's clearly demonstrating it as a training method, and his skill and power shines through - incredibly well i might add. He's clearly and unequivocally gained skill and power from the training. These guys are clearly training seriously, a certain method, and nothing all that 'fancy' either. The feeder is not being too one dimensional either.

The stuff that gets pilloried is just usually presented as demonstration of certain things, they give off a wrong impression as they aren't ever counter balanced by more realistic training. In a recent example when the demonstrator was tested by an audience member he failed miserably. This guy just wouldn't - those of us with the requisite training and experience can usually smell these things out. Reactions that are OTT to what's been done is a good starting spot.
Last edited by cloudz on Thu Sep 01, 2022 2:07 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: your favourite (taiji) application/ technique clips ?

Postby cloudz on Thu Sep 01, 2022 2:12 am

windwalker wrote:
nicklinjm wrote:@Marvin8, you beat me to it - was about to post Ren Zhongxin as well, he is my gold standard, he really shows how nei jin (a) nullifies quite a lot of common attacks and (b) allows him to break other people's structure / launch them out at will.



The teacher seems very open, allowing others to feel his his teaching....taking care not hurt those wanting to see how things work....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oi-2LW9UQRQ



yep!
good demo
thanks

pretty much like an attack /defence drill I really like using.
Last edited by cloudz on Thu Sep 01, 2022 2:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: your favourite (taiji) application/ technique clips ?

Postby marvin8 on Thu Sep 01, 2022 4:15 am

cloudz wrote:
Bao wrote:Personally not a fan of tai chi turned into jumpy point sparring, much more of a traditionalist.


that's a little unfair of a characterisation, though I take the point the footwork maybe more sporty than traditional....

this kind of active mobility is really useful, it lends itself to agile reactions. Being too static can give yourself problems and should be used situationally. And of course it may just be that someone goes for you when you're not expecting it. Footwork is something i like to focus a fair bit - it's a pretty big deal IMO, especially if you're a smaller guy, which I am.

Starting at 2:15:

Ramzi Nabulsi wrote:You've now entered the tai chi world, if you can get your fa to work correctly. However just because you can do it, it doesn't mean you can do it on demand…. Entry-level archery: to be able to do that from a very close distance…. Your first task is to be able to have solid groupings, where your arrows are touching wherever you shoot. Does that mean if i can do that, in that very controlled and short distance, that if a bird of prey is flying past I’m going to shoot it down? That's a whole new skill. You're not even close to doing something like that.

The target being stationary and close to the shooter is akin to the way that we practice fajin in the training hall. When I'm working with a partner, they're not trying to hide their center, right? They're not a moving target. They're giving me a very solid single body structure. So when I capture them, when i go to seize them, they are easy to seize. Because, they're not trying to hide. When i go too fa, they don't try to recoil away. They're not jumping they're just allowing me to capture them. And, they're allowing me to throw them out.

It is much harder to do this, if the person doesn't want to be caught. So, there are tricks involved. And more importantly, there's a quality of skill. So if I can become more sung, if I can become truly sung and have a really great quality na, it's very hard to escape me. You will have to put up defenses. You can't be a wet noodle forever, because this is a martial art. If I'm striking at you, if I'm coming to hurt you, you have to put things in the way. You have to put resistance in the way. And, that resistance is my channel to your center. But, that's a skill thing. That's where they becomes the game of skill. So, it's much harder to have a very clean and beautiful fa against someone who is resisting….


Ramzi Nabulsi
Jun 19, 2022

In this episode I discuss what the beginnings of fajin looks like and how that can eventually transfer to combat application.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9qzZqR0KXA
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Re: your favourite (taiji) application/ technique clips ?

Postby Trip on Thu Sep 01, 2022 5:19 am

Bao wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDIb9TWy-78


Never saw this clip
Cool demo! :)
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Re: your favourite (taiji) application/ technique clips ?

Postby Bao on Thu Sep 01, 2022 8:02 am

origami_itto wrote:Applications that are intended to help beginners learn how to do the form correctly are less directly martially applicable, and yes they rely on the partner reacting in particular ways. The whole idea is to have the application idea serve as a pneumonic to help the beginner learn how to do the form correctly.


Ok, fair comments and good points.


cloudz wrote:and this isn't 'point sparring'. One guy is feeding the other reacting. it's one step technique training, that all traditional arts use, only he's reacting freely and spontaneously. Does it look more like sparring than normal, probably. But that's not because points are involved. It's would be fairer to describe it as a sports style sparring drill perhaps. I'd also add, that's a far less terrible thing than folks may envisage, but ok. not your cup of tea no problem.


Maybe I was unfair, IDK. I am not fond of practicing apps in this kind of a common sparring environment.

Jumping/moving around/showing quick footwork, trading punches, etc. is what I call sparring.

sport doesn't have to be your bag.
But The either or thing though - that's what's not my bag. I'll take what I see as useful and that's it.

Personally I like to have both this type of active footwork and a more static / reactive type, as well as perhaps less vertical movement (though I don't see any particular excessive amount here - keeping movement closer to the ground and horizontal. I like to be flexible, versatile and as multi dimensional as possible.

this kind of active mobility is really useful, it lends itself to agile reactions. Being too static can give yourself problems and should be used situationally - as all footwork. And of course it may just be that someone goes for you when you're not expecting it. Footwork is something i like to focus a fair bit - it's a pretty big deal IMO, especially if you're a smaller guy, which I am.


Footwork is good, agility is good. But compare with the Ren Zhongxin sparring clip. He can protect himself very well, but he is calm, rooted, keeping sunk. Mr Ren always has a certain calmness while following and adapting to his opponents at every inch, his timing is great. What is common in sparring or competition might not always be good for tai chi. If you move swiftly, you need to have a way to regain you stability, moving with stability, or moving in and out of that stability. Tai Chi jin use whole body movement, the whole body coordinated together from the feet in one movement.

Without commenting the individual person's own skills in the video you posted, I could say that in that video, and in that particular type of practice, I can't see anything that would lead to higher tai chi skills or higher general martial arts skills. Compared to what I strive to develop in my own tai chi, I believe that the focus is wrong, and that's all.
Last edited by Bao on Thu Sep 01, 2022 8:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: your favourite (taiji) application/ technique clips ?

Postby windwalker on Thu Sep 01, 2022 8:23 am

cloudz wrote:hey guys

I'm a bit behind the curve perhaps and not as up as I used to be on what's circulating out there in youtube land regards this topic.
having not been too involved on forums the past few years.

Would be good to see what the readership here considers their ' gold standard'.
Perhaps some of the professional teachers have their own channels etc.

please no push hands skills/ fajin type clips, though martial technique/form application from PH base is more than welcome.

thanks


My own "gold standard" is based on my teacher and his work :)
I do like and enjoy watching other teachers embodying some of the same ideas at a level that might be more understandable


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzhvvA5VKzM&t=240s

think the teacher is "陳項 Chen Xiang " Hunyuan Taiji

This teacher shows "continuous" "whole body" movement with no break

No set ups, no stopping ... :)

It's quite interesting and very reminiscent of the kind of work we did in Beijing.

taiji is about "as we practice" transitions, being neither yin nor yang...happening at the same time it's both.
The teacher talks about being sung "soft" not using force while still maintaining his own body integrity.

Not waiting for the others movement to begin or end,,,working as it happens....

What Bao mentioned regarding stepping, the mind set is a little different....it's not boxing...its taiji
Last edited by windwalker on Thu Sep 01, 2022 9:03 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: your favourite (taiji) application/ technique clips ?

Postby wayne hansen on Thu Sep 01, 2022 12:35 pm

I think to make it a good application a few things are needed
The student should throw a punch that is natural not signaled
It should hit the teacher if he dosent move
Some of the above the teacher starts his response before the punch is thrown
Next the student shouldn’t lock up after he is neutralised he should be moving to his next action
The chinna above is good but unrealistic due to how the student reacts
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: your favourite (taiji) application/ technique clips ?

Postby Bao on Thu Sep 01, 2022 1:17 pm

This is a bit artificial, but I like the simplicity of the methods.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIE53AH7YPA

Last edited by Bao on Thu Sep 01, 2022 1:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: your favourite (taiji) application/ technique clips ?

Postby wayne hansen on Thu Sep 01, 2022 6:50 pm

Ok but like most the punches don’t really reach him
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: your favourite (taiji) application/ technique clips ?

Postby GrahamB on Fri Sep 02, 2022 1:48 am

Personally I see street theatre, opera performance, movie kung fu, etc, as being integral to Chinese martial arts (as opposed to military arts) since the very beginnings... so I feel like if we're talking about martial arts then I can put Movie-Fu in my all time favourite internal martial arts clips :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yvccp0GEMgM



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Re: your favourite (taiji) application/ technique clips ?

Postby cloudz on Fri Sep 02, 2022 2:31 am

Bao wrote:

cloudz wrote:and this isn't 'point sparring'. One guy is feeding the other reacting. it's one step technique training, that all traditional arts use, only he's reacting freely and spontaneously. Does it look more like sparring than normal, probably. But that's not because points are involved. It's would be fairer to describe it as a sports style sparring drill perhaps. I'd also add, that's a far less terrible thing than folks may envisage, but ok. not your cup of tea no problem.


Maybe I was unfair, IDK. I am not fond of practicing apps in this kind of a common sparring environment.

Jumping/moving around/showing quick footwork, trading punches, etc. is what I call sparring.

sport doesn't have to be your bag.
But The either or thing though - that's what's not my bag. I'll take what I see as useful and that's it.

Personally I like to have both this type of active footwork and a more static / reactive type, as well as perhaps less vertical movement (though I don't see any particular excessive amount here - keeping movement closer to the ground and horizontal. I like to be flexible, versatile and as multi dimensional as possible.

this kind of active mobility is really useful, it lends itself to agile reactions. Being too static can give yourself problems and should be used situationally - as all footwork. And of course it may just be that someone goes for you when you're not expecting it. Footwork is something i like to focus a fair bit - it's a pretty big deal IMO, especially if you're a smaller guy, which I am.


Footwork is good, agility is good. But compare with the Ren Zhongxin sparring clip. He can protect himself very well, but he is calm, rooted, keeping sunk. Mr Ren always has a certain calmness while following and adapting to his opponents at every inch, his timing is great. What is common in sparring or competition might not always be good for tai chi. If you move swiftly, you need to have a way to regain you stability, moving with stability, or moving in and out of that stability. Tai Chi jin use whole body movement, the whole body coordinated together from the feet in one movement.

Without commenting the individual person's own skills in the video you posted, I could say that in that video, and in that particular type of practice, I can't see anything that would lead to higher tai chi skills or higher general martial arts skills. Compared to what I strive to develop in my own tai chi, I believe that the focus is wrong, and that's all.


ok fair enough and well stated. No joke had a feeling that clip would be brought up in comparison. I noticed it as well..
As i said it is a type of drill I like, It is like attack defence, but also more specifically grappling vs. striking - It became my favourite drill.
Without going back to it I'm fairly sure he doesn't strike back.

Admittedly, I tend to do more takedowns/ knockdown, or used to. I'm just gearing up for getting into more regular work.. perhaps there will be more videos from me in the not so distant future.

The clip is fine and great, and maybe I'm prone to defend my friends and guys that have been teachers to me, and will be, more than necessary. As i said he really doesn't need defending and that's one type of work he's capable of.. The other clip/other thread shows what i think is a more traditional approach to application and he does a pretty good job of it. The techniques are good IMO, and there's no pre movement of the feet in this kind of sparring/ sports fighting style style.

He teaches both.

Circling back to the clip you used for comparison; I think there's a couple of - what I think are important caveats - and these aren't criticisms, just observations. that I think would make a difference.

The attacker gives a good amount of momentum to work with, not every time, but he commits and kind of unbalances himself - gives good force that can be borrowed.. The skill of the borrower comes into play of course so I'm not suggesting that's not in play, but the attacker gives more than say I would for example.
He doesn't really have to work too much to get entries, he's given them.. I would expect to work a bit harder for control - I tend to expect strike that come in and out real quick and the thrower to be able to be pretty stable.

The other point is the defender is a significantly larger man, and therefore feels relatively safe, and the attacker isn't so much coming in on angles; forcing the defender to adjust a bit more than he does.

Faced with a guy who's moving around, to find opening and or create openings, a bigger guy who's force will be an issue and more of a danger may well change things. As would the need or requirement to strike back at the same time. That's not really what this drill or demo is about; but tht doesn't mean these things are not or should be a consideration.

I made the point in the last post about how it's situational - and I stand by it. But sure, we all train with different goals.
Last edited by cloudz on Fri Sep 02, 2022 2:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: your favourite (taiji) application/ technique clips ?

Postby Bao on Fri Sep 02, 2022 5:28 am

cloudz wrote:Faced with a guy who's moving around, to find opening and or create openings, a bigger guy who's force will be an issue and more of a danger may well change things. As would the need or requirement to strike back at the same time. That's not really what this drill or demo is about; but tht doesn't mean these things are not or should be a consideration.

I made the point in the last post about how it's situational - and I stand by it. But sure, we all train with different goals.


I think I understand what you mean. Sometimes looking at different types of clips, I find it obvious that a person has a general sparring mind-set and that he tries to adapt his art in a sparring situation. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that if a person loves sparring and wants to explore possibilities of using his art, Tai Chi or other traditional arts, in sparring. In fact, there are plenty of older Tai Chi masters who have entered sanda competitions and have encouraged their Tai Chi students to do the same. After all, before the late 80s push hands competitions boom, directed by the Chen village people (no pun intended), the format Tai Chi practitioners usually competed in was sanda.

I appreciate and have enjoyed practicing common or general types of sparring as in sanda, MMA, kick-boxing, muay thai etc. And I believe that everyone who wants to understand something about fighting should do a decent amount of sparring against various people. But personally, I have lost interest in adapting my tai chi to this kind of fighting style and sports fighting. My personal approach is to focus on more traditional skills and to adapt tai chi to real-life situations and combat, not to sports. As several others have pointed out through the years, and recently, real fighting on the street tends to be much more stationary and limited to a smaller area than on the mat, and of course, the outcome is decided must faster (most of sports fighting is designed to drag out the fight as long as possible for entertainment purposes). So here, there are very different conditions that impacts a fight, and also, these conditions are different and unique for each and every fight.

In general, I believe that everyone doing traditional arts should understand where his or her focus is. Now I am not telling people that they need to focus on this or that, but you need to understand what you are doing and what your practice will lead to. Aiming to develop traditional skills or adapting your art to modern sports rules are, IMHO and IME, two very different things. What you focus your own practice on will decide the outcome. As a Tai Chi practitioner, your Tai Chi will develop in the direction where you aim your focus in your practical practice. What you spend time on will decide the outcome. So for a modern person working and taking care of a family,time is a precious thing. You really need to decide what to spend your time on and decide what future development you want to aim at.
Last edited by Bao on Fri Sep 02, 2022 5:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: your favourite (taiji) application/ technique clips ?

Postby cloudz on Fri Sep 02, 2022 6:59 am

very true, there are different considerations and nothing wrong with having a focus.
what I would say is; given the popularity now of MMA in particular, so many more people you may encounter in a SD situation could likely, whether well trained or not have takeaways from sports fighting. Fights/ real fights more often than not can become dualistic in nature, so having that experience of it is good.
The more violent/ predatory encounters are perhaps another ball game entirely.

NIce to focus on areas you like or think are most of benefit, these days I'm into it for the fun and seeing how far I might possibly take my level. And I'm no spring chicken anymore. The obvious measuring stick is a sporting context, as it's the environment that's easiest to test yourself. I'm not likely to go looking to get attacked by some crazy anytime soon. If it happens it happens..

any road, back to some clips :)
Last edited by cloudz on Fri Sep 02, 2022 7:02 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: your favourite (taiji) application/ technique clips ?

Postby Bob on Fri Sep 02, 2022 9:33 am

windwalker wrote:
cloudz wrote:hey guys

I'm a bit behind the curve perhaps and not as up as I used to be on what's circulating out there in youtube land regards this topic.
having not been too involved on forums the past few years.

Would be good to see what the readership here considers their ' gold standard'.
Perhaps some of the professional teachers have their own channels etc.

please no push hands skills/ fajin type clips, though martial technique/form application from PH base is more than welcome.

thanks


My own "gold standard" is based on my teacher and his work :)
I do like and enjoy watching other teachers embodying some of the same ideas at a level that might be more understandable


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzhvvA5VKzM&t=240s

think the teacher is "陳項 Chen Xiang " Hunyuan Taiji

This teacher shows "continuous" "whole body" movement with no break

No set ups, no stopping ... :)

It's quite interesting and very reminiscent of the kind of work we did in Beijing.

taiji is about "as we practice" transitions, being neither yin nor yang...happening at the same time it's both.
The teacher talks about being sung "soft" not using force while still maintaining his own body integrity.

Not waiting for the others movement to begin or end,,,working as it happens....

What Bao mentioned regarding stepping, the mind set is a little different....it's not boxing...its taiji


Not sure if he is the same guy but the combination of learning both hun yuan taiji and baji looks sensible

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5vTDUjpIQ4&t=6s

Last edited by Bob on Fri Sep 02, 2022 9:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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