the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

Yang Jun answers
Who Started Yang Style Taijiquan?
And, approximately when & where it comes from

Simple answer for some
Maybe not so simple for others

Yea..

peoples minds have this knack of making cma style a lot more concrete than it really is.
to strip back, really there are martial systems, and they may contain a whole bunch of things. things not (all) necessarily that need setting in stone.

the discussion can become complex of course, as is the nature of things.
But it does help to take step back and look at 'the system'

on one level TCMA or kung fu is a system; many styles follow
then further on it takes on a fractal nature.

Western boxing is a system
mma is a system

training systems first. then you can start with style of this or that. or perhaps flavour as some may prefer.

I think without question YLC as the founder, modified his training system(s) over the years..

Well that's that settled then. No more debate. What's next?

GrahamB wrote:Well that's that settled then. No more debate. What's next?

one touch knockouts please!

cloudz wrote:

GrahamB wrote:Well that's that settled then. No more debate. What's next?

one touch knockouts please!

No problem - just texting Chan Sang Feng. We'll have this one sorted in seconds!

Well, he speaks only about Yang style, not Taijiquan in general.

However, notice that he is arguing about who started Yang FAMILY Taijiquan = Yang shi 氏 Taijiquan. 氏 means clan, family, lineage and is often what we translate to "style".

But here's the rub. "Yang Family Tai Chi" is a registered brand. It's a brand created by Yang Jun himself and his father Yang Zhenduo. This is their own standardized Tai Chi from what Yang Chengfu taught as his "new style", something created for the masses to keep health.

So when he speaks about Yang family Tai Chi, I find it a bit deceptive. He actually answers to his own students about the art that they practice. So when Yang Jun speaks, it sounds as that the simplified Yang version that they do and teach, was created by Yang Luchan.

This is a bit like the Chen stylists claim that Chen style is the oldest Taijiquan and use Chen Xiaowang's modern standardization for something much, much older and probably much different.

Yang Jun has good marketing and branding skills, no doubt about that.

There's public teaching and then there's students, disciples and family.
YCF seems to be getting a 'bad rep' round here recently. YSC was the true family inheritor in my opinion, rather than this chaps father.
But ok, he's been around and dedicated himself as far as i'm aware, so good luck to him.

But with most things Chinese and martial it's not so clear cut as sometimes made out.
No one here seems to doubt the Dong family system, his main teacher was YCF

YCF had some good disciples so just talking about modified for the public is a bit simplistic really..
the depth is inward and is spread across the system. The modified empty hand form is but one part and there are levels to that too..

but sure let's keep it simple, why not.. ?
YCF made it a bit rubbish for joe public, therefore...... honestly that the outer form looks deceptively 'simplified' is neither here nor there.

I don't think he's being 'deceptive'; it's not a secret, that it passed through a few generations of Yang family and every Yang generation had their own forms.

cloudz wrote:I don't think he's being 'deceptive'; it's not a secret, that it passed through a few generations of Yang family and every Yang generation had their own forms.

My point is that the standard and methods they teach in Yang Family Tai Chi organisation, is something Yang Zhenduo and Yang Jun has developed. It's not general Yang style and it's not accepted as "THE" standard by other lineages. This organisation is not accepted the head organisation of the "Yang Family". Yang Jun tries to make it look as he is the head of all of Yang Style, but this not true. He is only the head of his own organisation.

He understand how he and what he says is perceived and that is why it's deceitful.

Bao wrote:

cloudz wrote:I don't think he's being 'deceptive'; it's not a secret, that it passed through a few generations of Yang family and every Yang generation had their own forms.

My point is that the standard and methods they teach in Yang Family Tai Chi organisation, is something Yang Zhenduo and Yang Jun has developed. It's not general Yang style and it's not accepted as "THE" standard by other lineages. This organisation is not accepted the head organisation of the "Yang Family". Yang Jun tries to make it look as he is the head of all of Yang Style, but this not true. He is only the head of his own organisation.

He understand how he and what he says is perceived and that is why it's deceitful.

ah ok thanks; don't know all that much about them to be fair. Point taken!
but yes, definitely doing the whole commercial business route aren't they. very different, in that regard, to the HK Yang family..

Bao wrote:Well, he speaks only about Yang style, not Taijiquan in general.

However, notice that he is arguing about who started Yang FAMILY Taijiquan = Yang shi 氏 Taijiquan. 氏 means clan, family, lineage and is often what we translate to "style".

But here's the rub. "Yang Family Tai Chi" is a registered brand. It's a brand created by Yang Jun himself and his father Yang Zhenduo. This is their own standardized Tai Chi from what Yang Chengfu taught as his "new style", something created for the masses to keep health.

So when he speaks about Yang family Tai Chi, I find it a bit deceptive. He actually answers to his own students about the art that they practice. So when Yang Jun speaks, it sounds as that the simplified Yang version that they do and teach, was created by Yang Luchan.

This is a bit like the Chen stylists claim that Chen style is the oldest Taijiquan and use Chen Xiaowang's modern standardization for something much, much older and probably much different.

Yang Jun has good marketing and branding skills, no doubt about that.

He explained how simple it is in fact and you made a political thing of it...

BTW, my Chen Style is from the same lineage as Chen Xiaowang's as my Teacher had the same Teachers as Chen Xiaowang. Nonetheless, i don't regard CXW's interpretation as older and something much different.

so a family style rep explains who started the family style?

He's telling the story he's been told. Afa marketing, his grand dad came to the US (in the 80s, iinm) and, as a lineal Yang descendant, called it Yang family tcc. In the UK, there were/are other Yang family members. There are students and disciplines following YSC's line. There was a school in Boston, and there's one in NYC (or was).

I'm not sure how big Yang Jun's organization is, or even how many people know of it. I think the video is for his students.

As far as I know both Dong and Fu sit higher in the Yang line
Dong is also a high ranking member of the Hao lineage both before and after his yang
There are many other Yang lines like Chen Wei Ming and his descendants from YCF
Not to mention those that came from the previous generations
In any endeavour sons are not always the best to carry an art forward
As Yang states he is the carrier of his Family line not the whole Style

Yang Jun is definitely Yang family!
The others are just as prominent in their own sphere, with their own training sequences but despite that, 80-90% do approximte the style/pattern of Yang Chengfu. Yes, he was a 'reformer' but many non family Yang practitioners still say the pattern we know today was 'standardized' by YCF. Keep in mind that Fu Zhongwen was the one who created an organizational structure prior to Yang Jun's and even Yang Zhenduo since he (FU Zhongmen WAS the main one to 'spread' the taijiquan gospel when all others were quiet, for whatever reason.

what is the academic interest?

we don't see too much (afaik) discussion of sub-lines under Jigoro Kano for example. I mean Gracie Jiu Jitsu is the big descendent, but other than that.

this wouldn't happen in basketball (the Michael Jordan lineage) or golf (the Tiger Woods lineage).

is it mainly an IMA thing? CMA?