Wu Tu Nan vs Gu Lisheng "usage frames"

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Re: Wu Tu Nan vs Gu Lisheng "usage frames"

Postby GrahamB on Fri Sep 23, 2022 1:49 pm

G - I think the mistake is in fetishising the forms.
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Re: Wu Tu Nan vs Gu Lisheng "usage frames"

Postby cloudz on Fri Sep 23, 2022 1:52 pm

but... but, it's soooo sexy G
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Re: Wu Tu Nan vs Gu Lisheng "usage frames"

Postby cloudz on Fri Sep 23, 2022 1:57 pm

when I think of 'forms' I kind of include everything, the neigong, the body mechanics...

when I shadow box, I'm doing form just free style/ free form.
when I spar, I'm doing form, just with the added nuisance of an opponent trying to stuff me up.

it's all movement of mind, body, spirit - to get a bit woo woo about it.
but yea, obviously it is, ultimately, about fighting too.. or getting better at it anyway..

I sparred pretty good the other night, so it's been a good week :D
Last edited by cloudz on Fri Sep 23, 2022 2:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Wu Tu Nan vs Gu Lisheng "usage frames"

Postby cloudz on Fri Sep 23, 2022 2:08 pm

Hey, get what you mean though.. it is a fair point.

someone put it to me as "the selling of frames". that's not what I'm really about or trying to achieve.. that seems to be a cultural thing that developed.

I kind of gave up on the idea a while ago that I'd get any good at bagua or xingyi/ xinyi - it would be spreading too thin.
so i really focused on tcc, one form, but just doing a form in as many ways as I could understand... or learn about.
also taking the yiquan approach to it in some sense, learning about the ILC approach which was also insightful.

supplemental exercises of various sorts have all in one way or another gone into 'one form'. more or less.. or at least that's been my idea. Am going to try and keep learning more at a certain pace and see where it takes me - I have more time on my hands now than I ever did. as I'm kinda retired from work proper, though I still do some stuff to tick over.
Last edited by cloudz on Fri Sep 23, 2022 2:16 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Wu Tu Nan vs Gu Lisheng "usage frames"

Postby Bao on Sat Sep 24, 2022 2:10 am

Tai chi people often say "it's all in the form". But some lineages only have one form, while other lineages have 10 forms.

Funny.

But most of them suck anyway, so it seems as it doesn't really matter how many forms or frame they practice.

Personally, I would say that "it's all in the principles". How well you understand Principle, and how well you can make us of it, is what matters.
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Re: Wu Tu Nan vs Gu Lisheng "usage frames"

Postby wayne hansen on Sat Sep 24, 2022 4:45 am

And the principles are in the forms
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Wu Tu Nan vs Gu Lisheng "usage frames"

Postby cloudz on Sat Sep 24, 2022 5:30 am

yea, it's not about 'moves' per se. though sometimes a new move here and there can bring something fresh.
but I've enjoyed just leaving it alone and how I described in 'my form' thread moves can manifest on their own - given the chance of free expression.

I've practiced plenty of technique separate from form for example. sparring etc. in the end once you understand principle(s).. moves are just moves.. no big deal.
but I guess when you are early on the path, you see other forms with cool looking moves and have a certain desire. sometimes it's not about the move per se but about the execution.

I still see some cool stuff i wouldn't mind trying but that's what keeps things ticking over and interesting. you can't let things get too stale, you need a bit of fresh inspiration now and again. It's just about dropping the odd thing in and maybe the odd thing out here and there. over time, where you end up can be somewhat different to where you start or what you started with.

for me different ways of practice, are more where it's at than anything to do with 'moves'. the principles must endure.
Last edited by cloudz on Sat Sep 24, 2022 5:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Wu Tu Nan vs Gu Lisheng "usage frames"

Postby windwalker on Sat Sep 24, 2022 8:39 am

Frames.... :)

Was taught to "make the movements small, make the mind large"

Others learned the same movement's using a different frame, which changed the way the movements looked.
Some practiced using high, middle and low basin .

All things adjusted to the persons body, expressing their current state of development..something that changes over the yrs..


There are some movements that can't be done with out opening the shoulders and hips....meeting the requirements
which look deceptively simple but are physically very hard to do with out having gone through some type of training do them...

Something I use in meeting young people wanting to practice taiji....asking them to do....most feeling they can do finding they can not... :)

Of course its not the movements themselves but what they enable one to do, a sign of training and development outside of usage..

For most taiji people asking me to work with them I look at their opening movement to get a sense of where there at and corrections
needed should they continue with this practice....

Wu Tunan - taijiquan


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Re: Wu Tu Nan vs Gu Lisheng "usage frames"

Postby Steve James on Sat Sep 24, 2022 9:32 am

for me different ways of practice, are more where it's at than anything to do with 'moves'. the principles must endure.


Imo, we have to start from the premise that none of the movements in tcc forms were created to be useless. I.e., every movement in every "frame" of tcc has/d an application. Also, besides frame, speed is irrelevant: slow forms can be sped up; fast ones can be slowed. Besides, tcc "theory" says that one responds to/follows the opponent's speed/force. And, the same goes for jumps and turning kicks.

However, imo, it's never been necessary to do a jumping kick in actual practice. Doing them might be advanced training, but if someone can't do it, they still have to defend themselves. And, we see lots of tcc "fights," but hardly ever see anything that looks like it came from a form. It may be true that tcc people are not up to the standards of old. They still have to face modern opponents, just as the founders of these arts had to face contemporaries.

Ime, most tcc people go through form collection (and book collection) phases. For anyone who's not a professional, knowing 3 long forms and 3 weapons forms is great, practicing them every day might be a problem.
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Re: Wu Tu Nan vs Gu Lisheng "usage frames"

Postby Bao on Sat Sep 24, 2022 12:10 pm

Steve James wrote:Imo, we have to start from the premise that none of the movements in tcc forms were created to be useless. I.e., every movement in every "frame" of tcc has/d an application.


That's a fair point. It's obviously true that every movement has an application. But was the movement always created from application or from principle? Applications were created to be in accordance with tai chi principles. Even if the interpretation of movements can be different, the principles should remain the same.

This means that you should always be able to follow the ten advices, always be able to maintain your zhongding and move freely according to the five steps etc.

This might sound obvious but when it comes to different frames and "modes", I sometimes feel that the practitioner moves away from the basic tai chi principles and replace them with something else. This should be a sign that the practitioner isn't really that good and don't understand Tai Chi very well. Practicing any of the traditional frames: small, fast, "under the table", etc, you should be able to keep the principles intact. If not, there is something wrong.
Last edited by Bao on Sat Sep 24, 2022 12:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Wu Tu Nan vs Gu Lisheng "usage frames"

Postby Steve James on Sat Sep 24, 2022 12:37 pm

Well, imo, "principles" are there only to make things work. For ex., having zhong ding or being sung make any application more effective. However, the object is to perform the work, not to be purist. There are too many examples of tcc masters who can't block a punch to the face.

How many forms are necessary for someone who does tcc to fight some other martial artist? I'd argue it depends on which martial art/ist they're facing. Once that's defined, I'd say that practicing one thing 10K times is better than practicing 10K things.

Imo, everyone should know an application for every shi/posture, or it's useless. And, I think anyone who's serious should be able to demonstrate a few uses. For that, they need to understand the principles.
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