Yang family uk power pushing...

[cloudz]

George, I love the way your posts are like "fuck you! fuck you! fuck you!" and then they end so sweetly with "Regards, George".

tell me about it
it's totally dumb on my part

[marvin8]

The problem is that some people didn't get the idea of jin. Many still don't. How can you be loose and relaxed, but not collapse?

ZMQ pushing. I like the push at 0:30, ZMQ uses ward off to push the guy and his arm doesn't collapse, it's a good example of jin. It's also clear that he's not using his "shoulder" (deltoid) to push, his upper arm is extended when he starts to push. The same thing is shown at 3:06 where he pushes Robert Smith, and again at 3:09.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSYPOhSgiis

ZMQ also shows strength against strength (jin).

Yes. At 3:06, ZMQ:

1. presses (ji) causing Gibbs to roll back (lu) 2. as Gibbs shifts his weight to the front foot and attacks, ZMQ adheres by bending his elbow 3. while bending his elbow, ZMQ slightly rolls back, then shifts his weight to the front foot (shortens lu) and issues push with forearm (ward off/Ti Fang RSF thread), attached->resistance->withdraw->acceleration (li?).


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSYPOhSgiist=3m6s

Similar mechanics and timing. Wilder in post fight interview, "I was making him reach, trying to keep my distance. I had to circle. I set him up, allowed him to reach then. when he reached, I attacked. "

In Wilder vs Helenius, Wilder:

1. steps back luring Helenius to follow 2. as Helenius shifts his weight to the front foot and punches, Wilder rolls back, then shifts his weight to the front foot and issues short right hand KOing Helenius:

[wayne hansen]

Tam springs off his arm nothing special there

[cloudz]

Cloudz, George, whatever your name is. I have no interest in trading insults.
Have your point. Enjoy your training.

whilst there is no excuse for (pathetic) temper tantrums.... here's the thing.
I feel like I'm genuinely able to separate strength training from skill training etc.

I made the following post in the skills thread about stick, adhere, join, follow in reply to Bao maybe a day or so before posting this.
The skills thread in which for several pages you were being accused of arguing a strawman.

You started pretty much straight away to argue a strawman on this topic as well - In my opinion of course. Perhaps you won't recognise what I'm saying maybe you will.

I tried to direct you towards the area I feel you're making an unnecessary major assumption and basing your subsequent reasoning on that.

You take the discussion away from strength training and into usage to make your point about a certain kind of strength training. This is a fallacy in terms of 'argument' when directed at anything I have said or argued for..

the only debate there is, is HOW to strength train and to what levels are useful etc.
even a nice bit of slow form contains an element of it.

the point of contention is whether there is interference (harm) in our subsequent use of our motor control training from certain types and/or magnitude of strength training.

reply to Bao

yea look, of course i don't mean trying to out power someone, force on force. Power/strength is used to maintain posture ('immovability').'But we all use strength - those guys are doing everything in their power to keep their posture and not 'give an inch'.. Calling it neutralising doesn't take away muscular effort involved. That takes muscular strength and that is strength..postural/ static or otherwise.. When they try to get an advantage, the other guy has to use both their skill and muscular strength to close that off. These are skill full means of combining motor control and the natural strength of the body (naturally using muscle to achieve physical movement or maintain a physically aligned structure under load..).

With all respect, I'm speaking as clearly as I can, as often as I can.. I'm a bit fed up of all the paranoia over muscle and strength. Like no one uses it.
I say total bull shit to that. I know what is undesirable, and I ALWAYS avoid issuing force against force directly.. if I can help it, or if the force isn't worth respecting and I can go through it or move it someway - I am literally always, constantly, diverting incoming force on me. The point here is that they are weaker where you are stronger - through position and skill full means. there may still be some resistance or strength there to get through and this is where your listening and measuring will inform you where is worth to go - how to use your force in the most easy way to get your objective. For me, at this point, to NOT take an opportunity I know I can (through feeling) or have a fair chance, just because it may take some physical effort... well I think that's just stupid for stupids sake.

If you didn't use muscle strength with me I would run you over, until you did; is that not obvious. Call it jin, call it li, rooting, call it what you like. If I can use my strength - COMBINED with skill to get an advantage, believe me i will do it. Anyone who says otherwise either isn't skilled enough or is full of shit. Investing in Loss is fine, learning from it is fine. At this point (after 20 years) if someone is more skilled than me, but I'm stronger I'm not going to not try to use it, out of some dogmatic arbitrary ideological construct ("don't use strength /"Li"). What's the point of that ?

It's dogmatic bullshit and keeps people from getting better. It's the same principle as a good big guy will beat a good little guy. Things being equal strength matters; always has, always will.

It's absolutely right and good to focus on technical skill, least effort - and ALL that good shit. But we have turned into a bunch of people that seemingly demonise and frown on any mention of strength. It's the dumbest shit ever. Disciplines that actually work with strength are some of the best at teaching how to use it most efficiently. Like say working with weapons but much better. The stronger you are (without being detrimental to your mobility and attention to skill), the better off you are in a physical activity. Strength/power also translates to speed. Pure and simple. Why would more speed not be good. Just because you can't always rely on it, or not forever that does not mean you should fore sake it. The point is not to throw away strength and speed, but the point is to put skill at the top of the triangle. They will only enhance skill. Why not embrace that rather than look down on it or be so downright weird about it. We've all seen the little sumos beating the big ones; that is a combination of power and skill. If they acted like a typical tai chi guy they would be run off the platform. What's the damn point of that ? And that's exactly the ruleset of those tai chi guys. Why do they even contest this way if an average sumo player would just run them out with power. As if they don't know how to root, 'relax' and neutralise. Dude, seriously, of course they do!

Tai chi people generally hate the comparison. It's become the go to put down, but the irony is those same people are training in a way that seeks to achieve the very same objectives. Otherwise what the hell where those masters even doing? Maybe we have just been sucked into some cultural game that's not the best use of time overall.. I'm far from thinking it is the be all - we really need to focus MUCH MORE back on punching and kicking as well as a much more rounded wrestling idea that attacks the legs. Then a lot of this using strength bullshit would go away as well.

The main things really needs to be or become Sanda, not a too narrow stand up grappling ruleset. It's right to say 'strength is not the point', 'speed is not the point'. Skill is the point; it's the point of martial arts, it's the point of TCC, it's the point of much of the classic saying and stories.. It's the point of classical tui shou, it's the point of these four words we're having a thread about.. But the point is NOT that strength and speed are undesirable or to NOT be used and or trained for. Just don't do it at the expense of skill, do it in support of it.

When i train or think of 'strength', I include endurance and cardio (strength endurance is big). In pushing / grappling, nothing will defeat you more readily than being weak, (in comparison to your opponent) in that area. Even with people arguably better skilled than me, defending and not getting caught was possible until I ran out of gas. Then it was over. Without this form/ aspect of strength you can't do shit.

[origami_itto]

The point that I'm trying to make, poorly, because yes I strengthen my body, is that the strength should not go directly against the strength.

In the video, by all outward appearances, it looks like they are both pushing and one pushes harder so the other goes back. The idea of "power pushing" and "strength" speak directly to that. The idea is one is generating superior force.

That's not what's happening. Yes, they initially push against each other, but the guy on the left has his force redirected and transformed. The other guy is pushing through his strength without engaging it. In fact the teacher is even demonstrating the difference when he himself is trying to use strength against strength.

So, yes, as always, the exercises themselves and a mental focus on eliminating strength trains the body to be strong and how to use it properly. That brings you to the doorway of effortless pushing.

Contrariwise, focusing on strength can make us want to use strength in a way that we can feel it and get that feedback. If we're feeling strong, generally we're actually weak. Feeling the muscles working is like hearing the serpentine belt in your car. You don't need it and it's decreasing efficiency.

It's quick, it's easy, provides concrete results, but it's the near enemy that leads you away from Taijiquan in my opinion.

Expressed most succinctly here.

how to use your force in the most easy way to get your objective. For me, at this point, to NOT take an opportunity I know I can (through feeling) or have a fair chance, just because it may take some physical effort... well I think that's just stupid for stupids sake.

What is the context? What are the stakes?

Musashi Miyamoto says not to do anything without a purpose. If you are training the purpose is to get better, so taking the easy way is cheating yourself and training you to do it wrong.

If you're fighting to make a living, or in self defense, yeah, sure, whatever works in the moment works, you win by any means necessary. Musashi also said the only real dishonor was falling with a weapon undrawn.

Anything short of that, I don't care about winning. Push me out, throw me around, punch me in the face, it's all good learning. Maybe I'll get a couple good shots off you too.

To me, "winning" some meaningless exchange is far less important than training out bad habits.

[Fubo]

I trained this exercise for years from 1997 onwards, both in Hong Kong and the UK, and found it an extremely good training method. Those who think this is about "force again force" miss the point of the exercise... it's not application training. It helps train the ability to relax when pressure is being applied. It helps train and align the connection between the hand and the root. It helps develop the alignment, muscles and connective tissue in a unified way. It helps develop the Yi. I helps develop the Jing. This is no more "force against force" than Zhan Zhuang is, in the sense that in Zhan Zhuang the body under gravity is causing continuous pressure in the legs... the requirements to "Song" remain the same.

The exercise is generally done in 2 ways. The first there is a pusher and a receiver, where the pusher will slowly increase pressure and the receiver aims to maintain their structure, intention and other requirements, the point is not about trying to push the receiver away. Typically there's not much visible movement, and both partners look like they're frozen. The second is where the pusher aims to project the receiver away, and the receiver is offering resistance... often the receiver is not trying to stand their ground, but offering a structure to push against.