structure - no-structure. peng jin

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structure - no-structure. peng jin

Postby windwalker on Tue Oct 25, 2022 10:52 am


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KbL-7OeHX4

good explanation and demo of differences between structure and no structure

"peng jin"

Interesting article, that might help to explain the actions in the clip.


Zhong Ding (Equilibrium)
Adam displayed a clear understanding of Zhong ding numerous times throughout the practical demonstrations, including answering a dedicated question on the meaning of Zhong ding in part two of the interview. I will try my best to explain how it feels when I attempted to attack Sifu Mizner’s center of equilibrium during filming. First of all, this may sound strange to anyone that has not had first-hand experience in working with someone with this skill.

Please bear with me as I try to explain. Each time I attempted to push Sifu Mizner, my force seemed to remain on the outside of his body, making it feel impossible to find his center and affect his balance in any way. Usually, when pushing a person, you are aware if they are bracing to resist your force, and you can feel the moment they begin to fold and yield. However, with Adam, that is not the case. You can not detect any bracing or the use of holding a fixed structure.

His center is hidden. It is an experience that is very difficult to put into words, as it is unlike anything else I have previously encountered. No matter how hard I attempted to push or pull, my force did not affect him. Even with Adam sat on a wall with his legs dangling off the ground, he continued to display the ability not to be pushed backward and continued to retain his ‘Zhong Ding.’ If you think this is some trick or possibly the use of core strength, I will invite you to grab a partner and give it a try for yourself.

https://themartialman.com/how-does-it-f ... am-mizner/
Last edited by windwalker on Tue Oct 25, 2022 10:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: structure - no-structure. peng jin

Postby Bao on Tue Oct 25, 2022 12:17 pm

good explanation and demo of differences between structure and no structure


Agreed that it's a pretty good explanation "of differences between structure and no structure".

Pengjin? I wouldn't put too much emphasis on it right here. But your comment and quote about zhongding is spot on. Without it, no structure. It's internal and hidden. Pengjin is just something that happens by itself if you understand internal structure and know how to adapt it gently to the opponent's movements.
Last edited by Bao on Tue Oct 25, 2022 12:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: structure - no-structure. peng jin

Postby origami_itto on Tue Oct 25, 2022 11:02 pm

No lies detected.
It don't mean a thing, if it ain't got that jing.
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Re: structure - no-structure. peng jin

Postby everything on Wed Oct 26, 2022 12:32 pm

really like it, but I need a lot more practice, instruction, understanding, talent, luck ... :D
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
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Re: structure - no-structure. peng jin

Postby origami_itto on Wed Oct 26, 2022 4:32 pm

Another approach to explaining some of the same principles

It don't mean a thing, if it ain't got that jing.
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Re: structure - no-structure. peng jin

Postby everything on Thu Oct 27, 2022 3:06 pm

internal and hidden

this seems like a good phrase. it makes me think of some questions like

- in the beginning they tell you to hold a certain structure and relax, etc. I think this is very helpful. the inside follows the outside.
- I assume later, like in this video, it doesn't matter. the internal one feels/works the same. the outside follows the inside.
- somewhere in the massive gap in between, the larger outer frame seems to help get the internal and hidden one. if I try to make a smaller outer frame, some of the feeling is the same, some of it is different, though. I take this as a clue. IME. YMMV.
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Re: structure - no-structure. peng jin

Postby Bao on Fri Oct 28, 2022 1:27 am

everything wrote:- I assume later, like in this video, it doesn't matter. the internal one feels/works the same. the outside follows the inside.


Keeping the internal alignment (/zhongding) is the hard part, IME. It is hard, because it is subtle and it is hard to always keep the awareness here. If you don't, then you don't know if you keep the integrity of the internal alignment intact.

If you keep the integrity of the internal intact, the outer will follow.

the larger outer frame seems to help get the internal and hidden one.


IMO, the outer frame should be aligned with gravity in mind. The structure and balance of the outer frame should always be aligned so it helps you to "stack" your body towards the middle, from the feet up to the head, helping you naturally maintain your center and centerline. If you do this, the internal alignment and outer frame will naturally help each other.

When someone tries to push you or drag you, you will be immovable. If you always keep this integration in your actions, all of your movements will have a natural, powerful strength.

Again, it's subtle. How well you can do it depends on how well you can keep your internal alignment, not on the external shape. The external just follows.
Last edited by Bao on Fri Oct 28, 2022 1:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: structure - no-structure. peng jin

Postby windwalker on Fri Oct 28, 2022 7:10 am

Bao wrote:Again, it's subtle. How well you can do it depends on how well you can keep your internal alignment, not on the external shape. The external just follows.



yes

Where we might differ as to reason why.. "immobility" not clear....in your writing....
"Movement in stillness, stillness in movement"

Why someone may not be able to move someone,,,not because they are not able to move them.

one can not move what one can not feel.,,,to move...

We use the inner alignments building an awareness of them,
that the mind can understand what points are connected,
building boundaries of perception in relationship to the body.

Translation and analysis done by one of my students in Taiwan..

from

Image

Image

The vertical line associated with the string of the ancient bell can be divided into four sections; thus defining five points. (Figure 2) 4 resonators, 3 antinodes, and 2 nodes which may become antinodes.

(A) the vertex: located in the throat of the human body, is the spot where one can point at and attack the associated acupoint. It is also known as the deadly-point because it is not easy to move. It is equivalent to the front sight of a rifle which can be used to evaluate how the opponent’s body changes and moves. The vertex may respond as node or antinode.


(B) the upper dead point: being pulled by and hanged from the vertex, its motion range is small. A force applied here is not easy to be neutralized thus this point is call dead point.

A node point may respond as an antinode to a force applied if one is aware of it as a nodal point.


(C) the agile point: this point corresponds to the heart area. It is the most agile point in terms of body rotation, and is also the most difficult spot to be controlled. When doing push hand, one can probe this point to detect the reaction and then attack the dead point.


(D) the lower dead point: influenced by the hanging dead weight, this point’s range of motion is limited. The impact is more effective when applying the internal strength (Jin) towards this point.

(E) the pendulum point: located at the bottom of the vertical line, is where the dead weight is located. This point is in between the two hip joints. Once it moves, it affects the whole body, so it is usually used to stabilize the lower body.



practice


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-wvgOLa0yI
Last edited by windwalker on Fri Oct 28, 2022 8:32 pm, edited 11 times in total.
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Re: structure - no-structure. peng jin

Postby Giles on Sat Oct 29, 2022 5:05 am

origami_itto wrote:Another approach to explaining some of the same principles



An additional reason why I like this video, or this teacher, is that he's explaining to a student in a clear und helpful way how the student can improve. And in doing so, also enabling him to 'look good' against the teacher. In a very limited and controlled context, of course, but still.
The Mizner video is good in terms of content. Pengjin (and lujin and so on) is not about an external body shape or size, or a particular technique; it's about the way you organise mind and body, and hence your responses. And the video is also laced with his recurring subtext of "other people are stupid", but there you are - no one's forcing me to learn from him.

And I agree with the other statements made by my esteemed colleagues in this thread about the relationship and causality between the inner and the outer. Call it structure, call in body organisation, call it 'gestalt', whatever. Principles lead, body shape and effectiveness follow.
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Re: structure - no-structure. peng jin

Postby origami_itto on Sat Oct 29, 2022 6:50 am

Giles wrote:
origami_itto wrote:Another approach to explaining some of the same principles



An additional reason why I like this video, or this teacher, is that he's explaining to a student in a clear und helpful way how the student can improve. And in doing so, also enabling him to 'look good' against the teacher. In a very limited and controlled context, of course, but still.
The Mizner video is good in terms of content. Pengjin (and lujin and so on) is not about an external body shape or size, or a particular technique; it's about the way you organise mind and body, and hence your responses. And the video is also laced with his recurring subtext of "other people are stupid", but there you are - no one's forcing me to learn from him.

And I agree with the other statements made by my esteemed colleagues in this thread about the relationship and causality between the inner and the outer. Call it structure, call in body organisation, call it 'gestalt', whatever. Principles lead, body shape and effectiveness follow.


Alex is a great teacher. An hour with him gives me six months of stuff to work on.

And that's the difference there. One is teaching and the other is marketing. One says "you will never be able to do this" and the other says "here is how it's done, do it to me"
It don't mean a thing, if it ain't got that jing.
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Re: structure - no-structure. peng jin

Postby windwalker on Sat Oct 29, 2022 8:24 am


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwmUfYg4y8w

like this teacher...
Makes the distinction between using the body based on structure, and releasing stored inner energy not based on the structure.

What do those working with others or practicing with others,
use to show the differences between using structure and not ?

What are the distinctions that one uses to show the differences ?
Last edited by windwalker on Sat Oct 29, 2022 8:28 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: structure - no-structure. peng jin

Postby Giles on Sat Oct 29, 2022 10:36 am

Liang De Hua's explanatione and demonstrations are fine too. The only thing is, this thread and Windwalker's arguments are predicated on an interpretation of the word "structure" that is something of a straw man. "Structure" in the tai chi context can be EITHER be taken to mean becoming stiff and trying to be strong like a concrete building (as Liang shows at 3:40, but he talks here about stiffness, not about 'structure'). OR it can be taken to mean the shape and internal organisation of any 'body' in response to the forces acting on it. At 3:55 Liang still has 'structure' in this latter sense - otherwise he would be lying in a heap on the ground. And asphyxiating. Every gradation of fascia in the body has inherent structure, a cat has structure in its body as it leaps, a trampoline and a rubber ball and a stretched rubber band all have structure as they 'bounce'. A spider's web has a visible structure, and the spider silk has its own internal structure that gives it its properties of both strength and elasticity. (See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spider_silk#Structural. Even a soap bubble has structure, for its brief life. None of this means any of these bodies are excessively stiff, brittle, immobile etc.

And as an aside, as far as I can tell neither Mizner nor Liang use the word 'structure' at all in their respective videos here.

So if you wish to use 'structure' in your private sense of 'stiff and rigid and incorrect', Windwalker, then it's a free world. But please don't extend your pejorative interpretation to every mention of the word and build a whole argument upon it, because others may well be using the term in another sense (which is not analogous to 'stiff').
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Re: structure - no-structure. peng jin

Postby windwalker on Sat Oct 29, 2022 11:56 am

Giles wrote:
So if you wish to use 'structure' in your private sense of 'stiff and rigid and incorrect', Windwalker, then it's a free world.

But please don't extend your pejorative interpretation to every mention of the word and build a whole argument upon it,
because others may well be using the term in another sense (which is not analogous to 'stiff').


on my thread,,,,ya. ok ;D

You might try to understanding what is meant by "structure" out side of your understanding.

using it as an active agent , vs a passive conductor what is being discussed

Understand what is being conducted and acted on vs what is not....nothing to do with being stiff, ect....


At 3:55 Liang still has 'structure' in this latter sense - otherwise he would be lying in a heap on the ground. And asphyxiating.


;D

funny....
but understandable :-\

Try presenting your own thoughts relative to what you do based on what you do.....


Otherwise either start your own thread or don't post on this one....

regards :)
Last edited by windwalker on Sat Oct 29, 2022 4:23 pm, edited 7 times in total.
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Re: structure - no-structure. peng jin

Postby origami_itto on Sun Oct 30, 2022 5:02 am

Giles wrote:Liang De Hua's explanatione and demonstrations are fine too. The only thing is, this thread and Windwalker's arguments are predicated on an interpretation of the word "structure" that is something of a straw man. "Structure" in the tai chi context can be EITHER be taken to mean becoming stiff and trying to be strong like a concrete building (as Liang shows at 3:40, but he talks here about stiffness, not about 'structure'). OR it can be taken to mean the shape and internal organisation of any 'body' in response to the forces acting on it. At 3:55 Liang still has 'structure' in this latter sense - otherwise he would be lying in a heap on the ground. And asphyxiating. Every gradation of fascia in the body has inherent structure, a cat has structure in its body as it leaps, a trampoline and a rubber ball and a stretched rubber band all have structure as they 'bounce'. A spider's web has a visible structure, and the spider silk has its own internal structure that gives it its properties of both strength and elasticity. (See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spider_silk#Structural. Even a soap bubble has structure, for its brief life. None of this means any of these bodies are excessively stiff, brittle, immobile etc.

And as an aside, as far as I can tell neither Mizner nor Liang use the word 'structure' at all in their respective videos here.

So if you wish to use 'structure' in your private sense of 'stiff and rigid and incorrect', Windwalker, then it's a free world. But please don't extend your pejorative interpretation to every mention of the word and build a whole argument upon it, because others may well be using the term in another sense (which is not analogous to 'stiff').


Language is difficult. Why quibble over jargon?

The important point is that using your bones to channel incoming force to the ground through your structure is not correct. The force gets transformed, not channeled, usually.
It don't mean a thing, if it ain't got that jing.
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Re: structure - no-structure. peng jin

Postby windwalker on Sun Oct 30, 2022 7:52 am

origami_itto wrote:Language is difficult. Why quibble over jargon?

The important point is that using your bones to channel incoming force to the ground through your structure is not correct. The force gets transformed, not channeled, usually.


Some seem to be very dishonest, either by design or accidentally

And as an aside, as far as I can tell neither Mizner nor Liang use the word 'structure' at all in their respective videos here.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KbL-7OeHX4

2:7. He mentions structure as one the things not to get hung up on..

His seminar geared to the level of peoples understanding, using a verbiage they may be able to resonate with in demoing some of the underlying
principles of what he feels is "fake" "peng jin" in "his" teachings...

as with most things there are levels of understanding, reflected in the training...
He mentions being full, but does not touch to much on it in the demo clip... Perhaps it's more in depth later on.

This teachers group, I've met in Taiwan..
The alignments all based on adjusting the outer structure, to facilitate inner changes to the dynamic they work with..


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtgRaQzlrV0

Image
http://dragontaichi.blogspot.com/

The adjustments are made in reference what was covered in some of the post on this thread.
The distinction, the frame or structure is used to facility and adjust inner alignments used in
"harmonizing" or conducting ....

Not as suggested by the clip with Alex Dong,,,outlining his perception of what others do

Its different.

Dong/Tung style taiji, first introduction into the world of taiji....
In HI by those who learned directly from Dong/Tung family members...slow set, fast, weaponry ect.

Their syllabus / methods quite distinct and different from some of the teachers mention here.

Some mentioned marketing....
Family styles tend to keep a tight hold on their curriculum, and those authorized to teach.
Their marketing strategies a little different....not the topic of the thread...
Last edited by windwalker on Sun Oct 30, 2022 9:20 am, edited 5 times in total.
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