Tim Cartmell Bagua and Xingyi forms

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Re: Tim Cartmell Bagua and Xingyi forms

Postby Fubo on Wed Nov 16, 2022 12:48 pm

Tim was around other people who trained with Hsu, but also trained with Hsu's sons, so it's possible Tim completed his training with Hsu's sons... so I have no reason to doubt what he says.
Perhaps the reason you're not seeing evidence of TST is because Tim learned from Liang Ke Quan and Mao Mingchun after his Taiwan training, and his current expression favors the Shanxi material he learned.
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Re: Tim Cartmell Bagua and Xingyi forms

Postby wayne hansen on Wed Nov 16, 2022 1:42 pm

The mechanics were still terrible
They know that and that’s why i think it was pulled
If people here think it is good it says a lot
Last edited by wayne hansen on Wed Nov 16, 2022 1:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tim Cartmell Bagua and Xingyi forms

Postby cloudz on Wed Nov 16, 2022 4:10 pm

didn't see the clip, but have to agree that he does qualify as 'an expert'. my speculation is that maybe it's not as polished as someone doing a lot of form might be. I just don't think he practices a lot of form these days. Does that mean he can't teach it? Definitely I think he can. Or knows the important details? I'm sure he knows more than enough and has good body mechanics. When you have done something for a long period a lot of things are internalised and don't show in an obvious way. Unless you then purposely put them on show. As he's also done bagua and tai chi, as well as multiple styles of them as mentioned, maybe he's found that sweet spot where he moves one way that he finds optimal and maybe non specific to each art/style - in the body method sense.

I haven't seen much form by Tim, but i did have his Sun style DVD's and whilst I'm no expert on Sun style TCC, I couldn't find any fault with his form. Technically it looked perfectly fine. Sometimes it's not so clear cut from the outside, and we see things from our own lenses. There's also context to consider, he probably was not thinking in terms of 'best performance'. Perhaps it was just to film something for students to have the moves to follow or something like that. Something done casually.

Another thing that I find problematic is equating a Hsing I expert with form. Is that what Hsing I is ? Because honestly the best form in the world means nothing martially speaking. In of itself, body mechanics included.

Sometimes priorities are just messed up in these arts. he doesn't (really) need defending, his background and achievements speak for themselves. IIRC he repped the TST school in Taiwan Full contact fighting. He would probably be the first to admit form isn't high on his list of priorities nowadays and like anything it needs its own regular maintenance. So his form least of all, needs defending.
Last edited by cloudz on Thu Nov 17, 2022 8:15 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Tim Cartmell Bagua and Xingyi forms

Postby nicklinjm on Wed Nov 16, 2022 5:43 pm

I don't think it's even worth debating whether Tim is a good fighter, his fight record speaks for itself.

I understand where people are coming from when they say forms aren't everything, and I agree with that.

However, there is an issue of honesty here. I am pretty familiar with what the shenfa [body method] of Li Guichang's line looks like - not just Mao Mingchun but other teachers like Song Zhiyong and Wang Guoping - and Tim's rendition of the 5 elements shows no evidence of that. IMHO it just looks like standard Taiwanese xyq coming down from the Hong brothers.

Again, not questioning his fighting credentials - just saying maybe he should drop the mention of Mao Mingchun, that's all.
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Re: Tim Cartmell Bagua and Xingyi forms

Postby Fubo on Wed Nov 16, 2022 6:00 pm

nicklinjm wrote:However, there is an issue of honesty here. I am pretty familiar with what the shenfa [body method] of Li Guichang's line looks like - not just Mao Mingchun but other teachers like Song Zhiyong and Wang Guoping - and Tim's rendition of the 5 elements shows no evidence of that. IMHO it just looks like standard Taiwanese xyq coming down from the Hong brothers.

Again, not questioning his fighting credentials - just saying maybe he should drop the mention of Mao Mingchun, that's all.


To be fair, we don't know what the student asked to learn, nor what Tim was specifically showing in terms of lineage. Do we know his intent was to show the stuff from Taiwan, Mao Mingchun, Liang Ke Quan, a synthesis of what he finds best for him? No we don't... All the video title suggested was "Xing Yi", nothing more. There's no need to drop the names of the people he learned from in his bio, because he did learn from them, and he doesn't advertise representing any particular lineage, so I find nothing misleading in that.
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Re: Tim Cartmell Bagua and Xingyi forms

Postby windwalker on Wed Nov 16, 2022 7:06 pm

Not the clip in question,,,Gives a perspective of his movement


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wve_S-GlN0s
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Re: Tim Cartmell Bagua and Xingyi forms

Postby wayne hansen on Wed Nov 16, 2022 7:53 pm

Would love to know what the Ba Kua people think of this
What is his fight record
Any photos of him with HSU or his sons
If you think what he posted looks like Huangs stuff I must be missing something
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Re: Tim Cartmell Bagua and Xingyi forms

Postby Fubo on Wed Nov 16, 2022 9:19 pm

I don't think anyone claimed that his stuff looks like Huang's stuff, just that TST through Hsu's lineage was part of his training as stated in his bio, there's a photo of Tim with Hsu Chen Wang: http://shenwu.com/background.htm

I think his Bagua look functional. He applies the principles, body method and intent from his forms necessary to pull off the techniques... what more do people want? Bouncing students around during push hands?
Last edited by Fubo on Wed Nov 16, 2022 9:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Tim Cartmell Bagua and Xingyi forms

Postby everything on Wed Nov 16, 2022 9:32 pm

it's always nice to see bagua and xingyi. we seem to only bring up taijiquan. bouncing people around ... also seems to be always taijiquan. it would be really interesting to see all the "big 3" with the throws, the fajin, everything, yes. bit too much to ask, very true.
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Re: Tim Cartmell Bagua and Xingyi forms

Postby wayne hansen on Wed Nov 16, 2022 11:35 pm

Fubo wrote:I don't think anyone claimed that his stuff looks like Huang's stuff, just that TST through Hsu's lineage was part of his training as stated in his bio, there's a photo of Tim with Hsu Chen Wang: http://shenwu.com/background.htm

I think his Bagua look functional. He applies the principles, body method and intent from his forms necessary to pull off the techniques... what more do people want? Bouncing students around during push hands?


Niclejm claimed his movement looked like the Hong brothers
Meaning Hung
As he said he went to Taiwan in 84 HSU died in April
Even if he got there on the first of January and HSU wasn’t sick before he died and continued teaching up until he died it is 3 months at the utmost
Not very long to take on any part of the art
The photo of HSU is from inside Kung fu
No photo with Tim
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Re: Tim Cartmell Bagua and Xingyi forms

Postby wayne hansen on Thu Nov 17, 2022 12:52 am

I just had to check with my student that is HSU,s son ongy in the photo
He was teaching most of the classes at that time
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Re: Tim Cartmell Bagua and Xingyi forms

Postby cloudz on Thu Nov 17, 2022 8:28 am

Are you really thinking his time at TST is made up or something, that seems crazy... He was there at similar time as BKF IIRC. Not sure, but I recall reading they knew each other from that time - where they were KF brothers at TST. He knows Luo pretty well too from what I gather. If it was suspect, a tonne of people would have figured it out Wayne. The line of thinking you're pursuing here is just not in the realms of possibility. He was part of the school and learnt their stuff.

Who knows the exact time or duration, it hardly matters does it. You either like him/ his stuff or not.. not sure anyones going to lose any sleep over it.
I think some of the content he's put out has been great. His escapes dvd comes to mind. when it comes to technique, you'd be hard pressed to find a more skilled and knowledgable guy, particularly in the field of grappling/ chin na; ground or stand up.
Last edited by cloudz on Thu Nov 17, 2022 12:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tim Cartmell Bagua and Xingyi forms

Postby Bob on Thu Nov 17, 2022 9:13 am

He's been around - I've known one or two that have taken his seminars and done well.

http://www.shenwu.com/background.htm

You competed in some full contact tournaments in Taiwan. What did you learn from this experience?

After I had been training in Taiwan about six months, my Xing Yi Quan teacher entered me in a full contact tournament. Though I lost, it was an enlightening experience for me. Although there were few rules in these matches, there was a certain strategy that applied, much different from a street fight for example. Many of the Chinese fighters are extremely tough, and they usuallv dominate the international competitions there. Competing with them I gained valuable experience and insight into my own methods of training. I went back to revise my training based on my experiences and, a few months later, I entered another full contact competition. The organizers put me up into the light heavyweight division although at the time I was only 150 lbs. I took first place in the division and came through without injury. This experience was very valuable as it indicated my training methods were on the right track. The next year I entered one of the larger international tournaments. I won again, taking first place in the middleweight division. I feel these competitions gave me a wealth of valuable experience. I think the most important lessons I learned from these fights was that you can never practice the basics too much. You need to be a well rounded fighter, but knowing a thousand techniques you can do beautifully when there is no real pressure is not nearly as valuable as mastering a few techniques you can actually use in a real fight. It is, however, vital to be exposed to all areas of fighting. In order to be able to maintain mental calm and physical relaxation under pressure, you must be proficient in striking, wrestling and grappling arts. Sparring with skilled, non-cooperative opponents is a must if you hope to be able to use your art in a real fight. Finally, your mind-set and attitude will almost always prove to be the ultimate determinate of your victory or defeat.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goUvjxCW96Y

Tim Cartmell teaches in detail the principles of applying the Chin Na theories and techniques shown in the book "Practical Chin Na (#B126), and expertly demonstrates 20 different techniques with variations on each. This video concentrates on techniques used to lock the neck, elbow, and shoulder.
Edited by Dan Miller and Tim Cartmell.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uj3ZDwR9MLc

Tim Cartmell_Tui shou



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSsLxtI-PUw
The Standing Grappling; Escapes and Counters DVD covers throws and follow-ups to the most common street holds, including variations of; head locks, body locks, chokes, bear hugs, wrist grabs, tackles and many more.

*Music by "Wuditiz". Used with permission.

The principles of body alignment, balance and leverage are shown in great detail to enable you to overcome a larger, stronger opponenet.

The information contained in this DVD will help anyone better understand the concepts of effortless combat throws. Most of the techniques are geared toward countering and escaping but each session concludes with a few tips on some devastating follow-ups and finishes.

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Re: Tim Cartmell Bagua and Xingyi forms

Postby Fubo on Thu Nov 17, 2022 10:26 am

wayne hansen wrote:
Fubo wrote:I don't think anyone claimed that his stuff looks like Huang's stuff, just that TST through Hsu's lineage was part of his training as stated in his bio, there's a photo of Tim with Hsu Chen Wang: http://shenwu.com/background.htm

I think his Bagua look functional. He applies the principles, body method and intent from his forms necessary to pull off the techniques... what more do people want? Bouncing students around during push hands?


Niclejm claimed his movement looked like the Hong brothers
Meaning Hung
As he said he went to Taiwan in 84 HSU died in April
Even if he got there on the first of January and HSU wasn’t sick before he died and continued teaching up until he died it is 3 months at the utmost
Not very long to take on any part of the art
The photo of HSU is from inside Kung fu
No photo with Tim


Well I didn't say it looked like the Hong Brothers.
You asked for a photo of Tim with either Hsu "or" his son, and there's a photo of Tim with his son.
Not having a photo with Hsu is not evidence that he didn't study with him.
In Tim's bio, he states that he learned from Hsu, and then later from his son, there's no mention of a timeline.
I find this whole questioning of his background pretty pointless and pedantic, as Tim has always been a straight forward honest guy who has no need to pad his resume, as he's always walked the walk.
Last edited by Fubo on Thu Nov 17, 2022 10:35 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Tim Cartmell Bagua and Xingyi forms

Postby wayne hansen on Thu Nov 17, 2022 12:20 pm

The first day the clip was put up I said nothing
I didn’t think it was worth commenting on
It was only when it disappeared that I thought I should say something as one of the few that saw it
The thing about him training with HSU was in response to others saying he had
He admits he only went to Taiwan in 84 and HSU died in April of that year so it didn’t give much training time
I don’t know how anyone with any knowledge of the Hong brothers could think the stuff he did looks like them
I did fight in Taiwan but the fights themselves wernt a great learning expierence
Any sporting comp is just that
I have learnt much more from real life encounters
However the time there was
I have never seen any of his DVD,s so I can’t come to on them
The one posted here is quite good compared to the Ba kua one
His defence by many here reminds me of those who defend Mizner or Montague
I take it in the same way
It shows more about those who comment than Tim
It is interesting that the only people who agree with me do it on the back channel
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