Tim Cartmell Bagua and Xingyi forms

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Re: Tim Cartmell Bagua and Xingyi forms

Postby cloudz on Fri Nov 18, 2022 2:23 pm

wayne hansen wrote:That’s the most internal. Internal wing chun I have seen
A good way to change the subject is to first hide the clip then put up some really bad wing chun
Just one question did all those defending the clip see it before it was redacted


yea I mentioned I did not see the clip, so i can't defend something i didn't see. I have seen him do form though (eg. Sun style TCC)
what else is there to say about you not liking the clip, I really don't know.

are we supposed to judge a man who has had a long stint in martial arts, done various things etc. based on I don't know what exactly.
It's not like you even made that clear what was not to your liking - you even said it looked beautiful ???

what am I defending; sure perhaps i am defending something. Let's put our heads together and figure this out. or not, it's fine; you didn't like his form in that clip ! ;D
Last edited by cloudz on Fri Nov 18, 2022 2:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Tim Cartmell Bagua and Xingyi forms

Postby cloudz on Fri Nov 18, 2022 2:29 pm

so wait, you thought that guy had internal wing chun ?
that's what you got from observing his wooden dummy form...

oh

interesting...... ;D

any chance we can see you doing a form Wayne ?
Last edited by cloudz on Fri Nov 18, 2022 2:35 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Tim Cartmell Bagua and Xingyi forms

Postby Fubo on Fri Nov 18, 2022 3:13 pm

windwalker wrote:
Fubo wrote:Just to be clear, I never actually defended the clip, I placed no judgement on it either way, because while I personally don't train Bagua the same way, I would extend the benefit of doubt to Tim that he is doing what he's doing for specific reasons which may not be totally clear to the viewer.
All I pointed out was that Tim has trained with a number of high quality teachers and tests what he learns and trains.
I have been a fan of Tim's books, and I am a male, so I guess "fanboy" would technically be accurate lol.



No listing in your information about anything you’ve trained , or how long.
Mentioned this, in trying to understand a reference point for others’ perceptions .
As you mentioned, your training is different what would you point out as being different?

Tim, has written many books on internal arts, documenting them, but does not necessarily follow the precepts in his own practice from the reading I’ve done .

Could be mistaken or maybe what I’ve read is not very clear .


I have mentioned my training history in past posts, but didn't here as I was not trying to make direct comparisons between Tim and I... Just mentioning that we can have differences in our training while still giving the benefit of doubt... but since you asked, a few differences in my training are that my chest is a bit more "hollow", tailbone a bit more "dropped", walking height a bit more "sunken", torso a bit more turned towards the center of the circle, different rhythm within various movements and stepping etc.

I've enjoyed Tim's books, but I'm not qualified to determine what he does or does not follow within them, however I would find it a bit odd for someone to take the time and effort to write specific detailed requirements based on their experience over many years, only to not have those requirements be consistent within their own practice.
Last edited by Fubo on Fri Nov 18, 2022 3:19 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Tim Cartmell Bagua and Xingyi forms

Postby wayne hansen on Fri Nov 18, 2022 3:32 pm

That was a joke about internal wing Chun
I think most internal wing Chun is a bit dubious and the one you showed is pretty bad but along the same line
I don’t do wing Chun so I don’t really talk about it
If I had not seen the clip you posted I most defiantly would not have talked about it
I am sure that guy is most likely as nice a guy as Tim and would have as many people defend him
The only thing that differs is his clip is still up
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Tim Cartmell Bagua and Xingyi forms

Postby windwalker on Fri Nov 18, 2022 4:00 pm

wayne hansen wrote:That’s the most internal. Internal wing chun I have seen
A good way to change the subject is to first hide the clip then put up some really bad wing chun
Just one question did all those defending the clip see it before it was redacted


Interesting as I’ve mentioned, all CMA is internal.

Chris, was known for being very practical minded and fight oriented .
His thing was what he called dynamic tension .

Lots of sparing, with what might be called typical. Wing chun training.

Not my thing, nor was interesting to me.

Asked my friend what happened after the match.

He mentioned that he had tightened up and felt like he couldn’t move or explode out of his movements .
Seems like by product of training the dynamic tension training
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Re: Tim Cartmell Bagua and Xingyi forms

Postby windwalker on Fri Nov 18, 2022 4:11 pm

Fubo wrote:
windwalker wrote:
Fubo wrote:Just to be clear, I never actually defended the clip, I placed no judgement on it either way, because while I personally don't train Bagua the same way, I would extend the benefit of doubt to Tim that he is doing what he's doing for specific reasons which may not be totally clear to the viewer.
All I pointed out was that Tim has trained with a number of high quality teachers and tests what he learns and trains.
I have been a fan of Tim's books, and I am a male, so I guess "fanboy" would technically be accurate lol.



No listing in your information about anything you’ve trained , or how long.
Mentioned this, in trying to understand a reference point for others’ perceptions .
As you mentioned, your training is different what would you point out as being different?

Tim, has written many books on internal arts, documenting them, but does not necessarily follow the precepts in his own practice from the reading I’ve done .

Could be mistaken or maybe what I’ve read is not very clear .


I have mentioned my training history in past posts, but didn't here as I was not trying to make direct comparisons between Tim and I... Just mentioning that we can have differences in our training while still giving the benefit of doubt... but since you asked, a few differences in my training are that my chest is a bit more "hollow", tailbone a bit more "dropped", walking height a bit more "sunken", torso a bit more turned towards the center of the circle, different rhythm within various movements and stepping etc.

I've enjoyed Tim's books, but I'm not qualified to determine what he does or does not follow within them, however I would find it a bit odd for someone to take the time and effort to write specific detailed requirements based on their experience over many years, only to not have those requirements be consistent within their own practice.



Thanks for info

Good to know where a person is coming from .

In my reading, trying to understand some of what I noted along with some of the comments.
he had/has what might be called more of a western approach to his training.

His fighting record seems to be based on BJJ.

Interesting reading comments from a Bagua practitioner. .

Echoing some of the things I noted, expecting something a little different

In the taiji world , some might say CMA in general not many people look like what they’ve trained
Kinda a problem depending on if one is looking for that.

As Appledog, noted he, among others, where some of the first public people, in establishing the arts in the west.
Last edited by windwalker on Fri Nov 18, 2022 4:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tim Cartmell Bagua and Xingyi forms

Postby Fubo on Fri Nov 18, 2022 4:40 pm

windwalker wrote:
Thanks for info

Good to know where a person is coming from .

In my reading, trying to understand some of what I noted along with some of the comments.
Seems like he had/has what might be called more of a western approach to his training.

His fighting record seems to be based on BJJ.
Interesting reading comments from a Bagua practitioner. .

Echoing some of the things I noted.

In the taiji world , some might say CMA in general not many people look like what they’ve trained
Kinda a problem depending on if one is looking for that.


You're welcome.

From what I read on the old Shen Wu board a long time ago, Tim said teaches BJJ and MMA (pulling from stuff he's learned in CMA) in group classes, but will teach complete systems of CMA in private. I get the impression he talks about all this stuff in more universal terms, because he wants to make it more accessible to the wide range or people he comes into contact with, both "traditional" martial artists and combat sports people.

His bio mentions that he did a few Sanda style competitions in Taiwan, and when he came back to the states, he focused on competing in BJJ.
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Re: Tim Cartmell Bagua and Xingyi forms

Postby wayne hansen on Fri Nov 18, 2022 4:44 pm

All though not common there were teachers of these arts in the west when I started in 73
Tim didn’t go to Taiwan until 84 so I’m not sure what you mean by the earliest
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Tim Cartmell Bagua and Xingyi forms

Postby cloudz on Fri Nov 18, 2022 5:07 pm

wayne hansen wrote:That’s the most internal. Internal wing chun I have seen
A good way to change the subject is to first hide the clip then put up some really bad wing chun
Just one question did all those defending the clip see it before it was redacted


I just noticed this wording fully (bolded).. yea i posted a clip of some wing chun I saw and didn't like.. firstly what's the subject there.
secondly the removal of the original clip had zero to do with the latter.

It's not a conspiracy. seeing as I can't really discuss that original clip, what can I talk about.
Some of the themes that emerge are kinda interesting, or I'm just being too nerdy about this..

I went back and had a look what you actually said, to remind myself.
Basically

1. Beautiful
2. learnt from a book
3. terrible mechanics

So far we've established, he didn't learn those styles from a book.

Nothing specific about the mechanics though. You know, I'm starting to dislike that word.. aren't mechanics supposed to be under the hood.
Look, I'm at home, the Mrs has gone to bed, and I really don't have anything better to do.
Is that sad or what.
Last edited by cloudz on Fri Nov 18, 2022 5:09 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Tim Cartmell Bagua and Xingyi forms

Postby wayne hansen on Fri Nov 18, 2022 5:37 pm

For someone who nitpicks you miss what is said
I didn’t say he learnt it from a book
I said it looks like he learnt it from a book
Mechanics =Shen Fa
Not under the hood all over the car
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Tim Cartmell Bagua and Xingyi forms

Postby cloudz on Fri Nov 18, 2022 5:46 pm

windwalker wrote:Some perspective

.



he's old ?

I said specifically what i didn't like. I think that matters. If it was me, I would want to know specifics. Because primarily I'm prepared to listen and learn if it's constructive and well observed. Maybe it's relevant and maybe it isn't. But if it wasn't specific, how would you know ?

I recall also saying in the other forum, that it looked like he hadn't been practicing much and if he had how could it possibly look like that..
unless?

Maybe he's a nice guy, but if those are his best students; the ones he picks to demonstrate. Well I don't know, maybe he doesn't have better ones. Longer term ones.

Another thing I can say about Tim, just for comparison and not defence, is I've heard over the years - on this forum and other spots - directly from his students.
What a good teacher Tim is. We have seen people performing Sun style for example, who have been students of his. There was one guy I recall who got into Dog Brothers stick fighting, so on and so forth.

I don't really doubt, there would be plenty of guys come forward and say what a good teacher he is and how skilled he is hands on, and so on. As there have been others who have done exactly that in the past. I'm not trying to put anyone on a pedestal.

I didn't really post that wing chun guy so I could bash him particularly, he's probably a nice guy etc.
There may well be people, as mentioned by Wayne, who would come on and defend him, given the chance.

You know, just maybe, if there was a throw down for 70+ year old TCMA guys, maybe he would kick ass.
Not sure what my point is anymore. Oh wait, John, I reckon JW would kick his ass. all day long. ;D
I say that because i know a bit more about JW his training and have more to go on.

I guess we don't know, what we don't know.
But there are things we do.
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Re: Tim Cartmell Bagua and Xingyi forms

Postby cloudz on Fri Nov 18, 2022 5:55 pm

yeah Wayne

this is nitpicking

that's what I meant; not that he LITERALLY learnt from a book.
Caps, so it's crystal.

I mean I give you some credit to know he literally didn't learn it from a book.
maybe that's the difference between us; I try to give people credit where it's due.
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Re: Tim Cartmell Bagua and Xingyi forms

Postby cloudz on Fri Nov 18, 2022 6:03 pm

why don't you give Tim some pointers about his terrible mechanics
maybe he can learn from you

I'm still waiting for my corrections. ;D
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Re: Tim Cartmell Bagua and Xingyi forms

Postby everything on Fri Nov 18, 2022 6:04 pm

I didn't get to see the wing chun video, lol. Back in the "aughts", I got to "roll" for the first time with Tim and his student. Then learned some xingyi/bagua/taiji throws in the most down-to-earth "simple" way possible. Learned some out of light push hands, some out of demo, some out of drill. Stand-up or ground transitions were all super smooth, whether from push hands to a throw, or light rolling to a sub. This felt "legato" vs. the "staccato" that judo gripfighting seems to have. Continuous and flowing, like tai chi books say. Everything was explained clearly in generic and application terms unless you specifically wanted to know about the xingyi or taiji or whatever part, then he would tell you "this is this xingyi technique" or so on. Super nice guy.
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Re: Tim Cartmell Bagua and Xingyi forms

Postby windwalker on Fri Nov 18, 2022 6:09 pm

wayne hansen wrote:All though not common there were teachers of these arts in the west when I started in 73
Tim didn’t go to Taiwan until 84 so I’m not sure what you mean by the earliest



a little confused as to what or who this reply is to.... :)

Very correct in the 70s,,,at least in SF some of the most known teachers were teaching
at the time,,,,very formative time for CMA...and those wanting to learn CMA..

Having said this, they still had open and closed door type of training....
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