Systema Torso Pressure Points: Angles of Attack

[Andy_S]

A rather interesting series, particularly for yours truly, who has
(1) never really paid much attention to pressure points, beyond the basics; and
(2) has often wondered how the Systema guys seem to be able to deliver such 'sloppy' shots (ie punches without much apparent torque, bodyweight, full-body motion, etc) that nevertheless - apparently - have stopping power.

I am particularly curious about this notion that angle of attack is so critical. If this theory IS legit, it makes sense of a lot of techniques - particularly the 'CMA' uppercut (as seen in, for eg, Chen Taiji and Longfist) which has much, much less torso and torque behind it than the boxing uppercut. But IF is simply the 45 degree upward angle of attack that does the job then...well. (His section on striking angles to the groin, gels completely with my exp, though.) Anyway, I find this presentaiton 10 times more convincing than any of the Kyusho Jistsu/George Dillman stuff I have seen.

My problem is, with my sparring exp being from TKD, boxing and MT, I don't recall either being decked so easily, or decking opponents so easily with such apparently light shots; my training exp has been more to hit hard, and defend agianst said, rather than concentrate so much on angle. Moreover, re torso shots, I question whether a large and/of fat gent would be so easily dealt with....

Anyone with experience in this area care to comment?

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=9BUAXFZYX ... re=related

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=GBxsQqfIY ... re=related

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Cvozl45O6 ... re=related

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=bsR3A3VFX ... re=related

[ashe]

those are all coming directly from his budokan training.

[Andy_S]

Are you sure about that Ashe? I would say it is Systema, both in terms of the techinque of at least some of the punches,and also because, some time back, I asked a question to the Systema peeps on this forum:
How come you can punch effectively with what appears to be just the arm and no power train?

It appears apparent - from clips; I have never done Systema in person - that many of their shots are made without using, say, full body motion (Taiji), stepping (Hsingi), torque (Boxing), forearm spasm (Hakka CMA) or other recognizable power-gen methods. Hell, many of Vlad and Ryabko's punches are not ever particularly fast.

Well the online conversation was not fruitful from my point of view...nobody gave me an answer that made sense to me.

This issue of angles of attack, however, MAY be it. (I really don't know...this is a question, not a statement)

I am interested to hear what the Systema boys have to say.

[Ian]

the average arm weighs between 5 to 7 kg. you just need to throw it at your target.

it's important to involve your shoulder, otherwise you're not using the full weight of your arm.

just throw it and forget about it. you don't even have to form a proper fist as long as everything's aligned.

points of pain and angles are also important, but you should be able to stop someone just by hitting them in the chest.

oh and also, all practitioners are required to study budokan for 3 years before starting systema.

[ashe]

Are you sure about that Ashe?

100% look at his profile he clearly mentions his background in bujinkan taijutsu. in fact bujinkan taijutsu seemes to be his PRIMARY system.

MA History Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu (1980-2008)

although i'm far from being intimately familiar with their methods i used to fool around with someof those guys for a bout a year or two and i can state with absolute certainty that those all come from the bujinkan.

if i had to take a stab in the dark, i'd say he only got involved in systema recently since it's popular in the UK, and his background in the taijutsu gave him a leg up since at least superficially, the two methods seem very similar in approach.

at any rate, it's bujinkan material in those clips and not systema.

[GrahamB]

Andy, just watched the first bit of the first vid on the solar plexus. I'd be more convinced about all this if he didn't mentally prep the person before hitting them there. He tells him he'll be able to deal with shots to the stomach and the guy does, then he tells him that 45 upward into the solar plexus will really hurt - lots of preparation mentally for the fact that it will really hurt first. And guess what - it floors him. Not to say he's not right, just that this kind of 'mind control' stuff makes it look fake to me.

I guess the only way to know is to have somebody punch me randomly and lightly in the body all at the same power, while my eyes are closed, then occasionally go for an upward 45 degree solar plexus shot to see if it has the same effect as that video.

Anyway, I've been told it's a bad thing to let people do to you from CMA standpoint anyway, but for other reasons - something to do with a bone that can be dislodged into your heart and kill you - it occasionally happens to unfortunate Amercian football players. Anyway, it could be an old wives tale or I could be wrong - it was a long time ago, but probably best not to let people punch you there anyway

Anyway, it's good to hear some Northern accents in martial arts vids - reminds me of our Northern XingYi chapter.

[RobP]

Trevor, to his credit, was one of if not the first UK guy to train with Vladimir in the late 90s. And I'll leave it at that

Position and angle of strike are very important and this is one reason we normally start off by placing the fist on the partner's body and pushing. There's no "book of points" or similar structure (a la Erle Montaigue or CMA) it's really learnt by feel

cheers

Rob

[Daniel]

Well, Graham, we all know that it has been scientifically proven that if a victim is shouted at in Geordie first, all blows hurt more... (I´ve spent a bit of time in Newcastle ).

I don´t know enough of the guy´s background to comment. The general vibe he has in the clip is very Syztema, though.

The guy he´s hitting is prepped ten ways from here to Sunday. You can also see the way he closes down his entire system around his diaphragm and kidneys even after only the first couple of seconds of the clip.

To me, the idea in the first clip at least, seems good explanation on how to use a knife for killing. Getting a strike in like he is showing...seems far-fetched, if your opponent is even just a little skilled.

All I have been taught about pressure-points from within IMA mainly work on you being able to manipulate first your own intention, then the intention that shapes the energy in the strike, and then using that intention to manipulate the opponent´s system. Actual place doesn´t matter a whole hell of a lot when you hit anywhere in the person from any place on their body.


D.

Sarcasm. Oh yeah, like that´ll work.

[Andy_S]

SNIP
the average arm weighs between 5 to 7 kg. you just need to throw it at your target.

it's important to involve your shoulder, otherwise you're not using the full weight of your arm.

just throw it and forget about it. you don't even have to form a proper fist as long as everything's aligned.

points of pain and angles are also important, but you should be able to stop someone just by hitting them in the chest.
SNIP

This is what I mean when I said the previous discussion of Systema striking was not that fruitful. In boxing and MT, I have hit people with fully torqued body shots (using a lot more weight and momentum than just the arm) and NOT stopped them. Likewise, people have hit me with same, and I have kept going. Given this experience, I simply don't believe that "arm punches" - to the chest, of all target zones - are stoppers.

Hence my interest in angulation.

SNIP
All I have been taught about pressure-points from within IMA mainly work on you being able to manipulate first your own intention, then the intention that shapes the energy in the strike, and then using that intention to manipulate the opponent´s system. Actual place doesn´t matter a whole hell of a lot when you hit anywhere in the person from any place on their body
SNIP

I see. Er....care to rephrase that in English?

RobP:

As you are our top Systema bod, I'd be interested in hearing your views of this in a bit more depth (reference my questions). Unless of course, this gent is, in fact, giving away the closely guarded secrets of the ancient Russians....

[Ian]

SNIP
the average arm weighs between 5 to 7 kg. you just need to throw it at your target.

it's important to involve your shoulder, otherwise you're not using the full weight of your arm.

just throw it and forget about it. you don't even have to form a proper fist as long as everything's aligned.

points of pain and angles are also important, but you should be able to stop someone just by hitting them in the chest.
SNIP

This is what I mean when I said the previous discussion of Systema striking was not that fruitful. In boxing and MT, I have hit people with fully torqued body shots (using a lot more weight and momentum than just the arm) and NOT stopped them. Likewise, people have hit me with same, and I have kept going. Given this experience, I simply don't believe that "arm punches" - to the chest, of all target zones - are stoppers.

Hence my interest in angulation.

not fruitful? Andy, what are you expecting? the explanation is simple but you won't be able to do it if you don't do the drills. same can be said for any other art on the planet.

everything I mentioned is in this clip.

[RobP]

SNIP

RobP:

As you are our top Systema bod, I'd be interested in hearing your views of this in a bit more depth (reference my questions). Unless of course, this gent is, in fact, giving away the closely guarded secrets of the ancient Russians....

Hi Andy

Nothing secret about it IME, just do the drills and it reveals itself. Start by placing the fist and pushing and work up to whatever type of sparring / pressure testing takes your fancy. Alongside that put in some work to develop heavy hits and you've got it. Basically, keep it simple, keep it direct and practical and work in lots of real life contact

cheers
Rob

[Andy_S]

Well he is doing something, but quite frankly, I don't get what it is. It seems remarkable that Systema has managed to find a way of striking the torso that is a stopper (temporarily or otherwise) with none of the power trains you see in other MA, but as for "just throwing your hand" at someone and stopping them with a hit to the chest....well...I guess you just have to feel it.

And of course, hitting a chap who is just standing there is one thing, hitting a moving target firing back at you is another...

Still hope Rob P migth extrapolate a bit.

[Andy_S]

Ah, Rob, you replied while I was typing. Well cheers. The idea of these angled pushing strikes is someting to play with.

As for developing heavy hits: Well I did for years (bag and hook n jab work), but all those shots required pushing from the feet, twisting the hip, torquing the torso, following through with the shoulder, etc, etc, rather than just throwing out a tap with the arm.

[RobP]

The "arm only" heavy hitting is quite a different approach from punching from the feet and it's much better to work on bodies than bags Static press ups is one good exercise. There are also a range of selective tension / relaxation exercises that are very useful.

Prep work is on a static person, of course you need to add in your pressure work too. The thing is you don't aim for specific targets but let your fist go to whatever is available. Any kind of movement / attack from a partner will reveal something. The trick is letting you body get out of the way while at the same time hitting his. It's an inuitive appraoch and that is reflectedin the training methods

If you can I'd highly recommend some time with Mikhail, Vladimir etc if you can get it, it's much easier to be shown / felt than to read / write!

cheers

Rob

[DeusTrismegistus]

I think the vids are ok.

I can say with certainty that a straight in shot to the solar plexus can drop you as well. An upward angle is certainly very effective when aiming for the solar plexus. However it is also possible to learn to take a decent shot and stay up and moving. As hard as that dummy in the first vid was getting hit he shouldn't have dropped like that. I am sure it hurt but maybe some mental prep helped make it more effective.

I think it is interesting that the one under the armpit was basically the serratus muscles. Bruce Lee in his Jeet Kune Do lists all those spots as pressure points but I have never had luck finding the one under the armpit while sparring.

My teacher has always emphasized angle of attack. The other day I asked about how effective kicking to the knee on a person with really large legs and bone structure would be if you are a small woman without a lot of power. His response was it is all in the angle and the point of contact. Believe me just a light hit in the right spot was enough to know he was right.

As for the arm only punches thing I have a theory. The other say I was hitting myself in the arm with a stick. (Yea I know I sound brilliant now ) Well I noticed that I was basically stopping the stick after it made contact with the surface. So I decided for the hell of it to basically let my arm go limp while holding the stick so it would fall on my other arm, let me tell you what it hurt a lot more. I think it is related and basically means that the one armed stopping shots involve getting the arm moving and then completely relaxing while keeping the alignment of the arm or hand and letting the arm continue like a falling limb or shot arrow.