TBMAG Push Hands Retreat Nov 22

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TBMAG Push Hands Retreat Nov 22

Postby origami_itto on Mon Nov 21, 2022 4:53 am

So this weekend I was back in Plant City at the Push Hands retreat.

Absolute best time of the year as far as I'm concerned, the way life is right now this is the only chance I have for effective partner work.

I mean, I suck, don't get me wrong, lol. And I'm not playing a game to win, I'm trying to do certain things correctly and mostly failing, so I get pushed around a lot. It feels a lot better than it looks, and honestly I feel like I'm cheating them half the time, getting all this good info and giving nothing but chuckles in return.

I've noticed some of what I'm doing wrong and even managed to work on some of that as I went through the weekend. I haven't really edited or cut down the video at all, just downloaded and uploaded. I intend to trim it to the good stuff.

Anyhow, here's me and some other folks doing our poor imitation of Push Hands, please tell us what we're doing wrong. (Seriously, that forward fall is like inescapable for me wtf am I doing?)



This is a playlist of all my push hands sessions, edited for brevity. I'm the handsome one.

Last edited by origami_itto on Tue Nov 29, 2022 9:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: TBMAG Push Hands Retreat Nov 22

Postby everything on Mon Nov 21, 2022 11:59 am

looks like a great group, and a great time!
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Re: TBMAG Push Hands Retreat Nov 22

Postby origami_itto on Mon Nov 21, 2022 1:38 pm

everything wrote:looks like a great group, and a great time!


It was supposed to link to this playlist
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLMGE ... LAKqep1tSU
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Re: TBMAG Push Hands Retreat Nov 22

Postby everything on Mon Nov 21, 2022 6:50 pm

ah gotcha. don't have any technical comments. last time I tried push hands and made baby step progress, it was good, 4 oz vs. 1lb at best, but I got impatient, we all had no idea what we were doing, and so I went to judo to do throws. ph is difficult to work on imo.
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Re: TBMAG Push Hands Retreat Nov 22

Postby origami_itto on Mon Nov 21, 2022 7:17 pm

everything wrote:ah gotcha. don't have any technical comments. last time I tried push hands and made baby step progress, it was good, 4 oz vs. 1lb at best, but I got impatient, we all had no idea what we were doing, and so I went to judo to do throws. ph is difficult to work on imo.


It's hard to stay disciplined.
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Re: TBMAG Push Hands Retreat Nov 22

Postby Bhassler on Tue Nov 29, 2022 8:48 am

Thanks for sharing. I started getting a lot more out of fixed step tuishou when I got rid of all the shuffling feet that are prevalent in most of the vids I looked at. I.e., everyone sets their feet before they start pushing, and if anyone moves a foot, reset and start again. YMMV, etc.

Either way, it's nice of you to share. This way, I can sit behind my keyboard and judge everyone without going to all the effort of actually going and having to prove myself. Or practice. Or even know anything at all, really. Keyboard warriors, FTW!!!
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Re: TBMAG Push Hands Retreat Nov 22

Postby origami_itto on Tue Nov 29, 2022 8:57 am

Bhassler wrote:Thanks for sharing. I started getting a lot more out of fixed step tuishou when I got rid of all the shuffling feet that are prevalent in most of the vids I looked at. I.e., everyone sets their feet before they start pushing, and if anyone moves a foot, reset and start again. YMMV, etc.

I prefer true fixed step. I feel like moving makes it too easy to cover up mistakes. And yeah, plant your feet and stay there, it's over when you move them.

A lot of folks want to keep going when they get pushed, want to win, etc. So they do that little shuffle to try to get a little position advantage. I just try to match up my regular stance there, we start spinning....
Either way, it's nice of you to share. This way, I can sit behind my keyboard and judge everyone without going to all the effort of actually going and having to prove myself. Or practice. Or even know anything at all, really. Keyboard warriors, FTW!!!

Thank you. I really do try to be transparent about my skills and effort. This retreat I pretty much started with some of the hardest people when I was the least warmed up. I could edit the video and cherry pick moments with easier partners to make myself look better, but honestly, it's about me getting better, not me looking better. I want my haters to see my butting head, narrow stance, and forward focus that makes me fall in a hole. I want them to notice how I push myself out by trying to aggressively set something up.

I made Larry take a step. That tells me the last 9 months of training were not completely in vain.

Of course that just made him gently shake me like a ragdoll for a minute and a half, but I got that one surprise in.

Thank you for watching and commenting.
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Re: TBMAG Push Hands Retreat Nov 22

Postby wayne hansen on Tue Nov 29, 2022 11:05 am

Are you in these
If so which one are you
Is this the best of those that were there or are there other clips
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Re: TBMAG Push Hands Retreat Nov 22

Postby origami_itto on Tue Nov 29, 2022 11:30 am

wayne hansen wrote:Are you in these
If so which one are you
Is this the best of those that were there or are there other clips


I'm the one usually in a hat, long sleeve black shirt, face mask.
I'm editing them down to what i think is most relevant.
This is what I've cleaned up so far

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLMGE ... bWEmuxmHWp
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Re: TBMAG Push Hands Retreat Nov 22

Postby origami_itto on Tue Nov 29, 2022 9:55 pm

So wayne, here's the edited playlist. I started with the hardest folks Saturday then Sunday look for a new guy to give a clinic.

If you just look at Thahn Single Hand you might be fooled into thinking I might know some Taijiquan.

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Re: TBMAG Push Hands Retreat Nov 22

Postby everything on Wed Nov 30, 2022 9:35 am

don't know what to comment on as far as the actual ph activity since we don't know what things feel like "on the inside". that other dude looks very top heavy, and his legs look immobile (my fixation while I do leg rehab). idk about ph, but that can't be good for him in the scheme of things.
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Re: TBMAG Push Hands Retreat Nov 22

Postby robert on Wed Nov 30, 2022 12:21 pm

origami_itto wrote:Anyhow, here's me and some other folks doing our poor imitation of Push Hands, please tell us what we're doing wrong. (Seriously, that forward fall is like inescapable for me wtf am I doing?)

Just an observation watching a few clips. Larry, Casey, and JD look more song than you. Tristan and you seem to have about the same level of stiffness. To a large extent ph is about who has better jin development. In the clip with Larry his movement is pretty spare and economical compared to yours. Note that throughout the clips I mentioned you seem to break at the hips.

I'm sure you know all about song, but I'll link to this video anyway.



Keep at it.
Last edited by robert on Wed Nov 30, 2022 12:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: TBMAG Push Hands Retreat Nov 22

Postby origami_itto on Wed Nov 30, 2022 1:09 pm

robert wrote:
origami_itto wrote:Anyhow, here's me and some other folks doing our poor imitation of Push Hands, please tell us what we're doing wrong. (Seriously, that forward fall is like inescapable for me wtf am I doing?)

Just an observation watching a few clips. Larry, Casey, and JD look more song than you. Tristan and you seem to have about the same level of stiffness. To a large extent ph is about who has better jin development. In the clip with Larry his movement is pretty spare and economical compared to yours. Note that throughout the clips I mentioned you seem to break at the hips.

I'm sure you know all about song, but I'll link to this video anyway.



Keep at it.


Thank you.

I agree completely. Tristan is a karate blackbelt. I know he's been to that "martial camp" (you can see him in a video here and there, even as a demo student) and I think he's studying the HME stuff. I found that was probably the best overall work of the weekend for me.

I noticed I have this habit of wiggling my shoulders and hips to relax and I think that's what's making me "break" at the hips and shoulders. I actually got this correction from Alex Dong a year ago (and Doc in ...what 2015???) but ... you know... shit takes a while to burn in. The video is helping me see what I have to focus on in form this time around.

What is cool is that Larry and also Fernando did some things that I had experienced before but got a different perspective on, and then I was able to use them with Brandon and Sam later.

I'm trying hard to avoid going to the body and do everything through the hands and arms, not everybody is so disciplined. What I think I really need to work on is dropping my hips and turning when they come in for that two handed push to the shoulders. It gets me damn near every time.
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Re: TBMAG Push Hands Retreat Nov 22

Postby robert on Wed Nov 30, 2022 3:11 pm

origami_itto wrote: I actually got this correction from Alex Dong a year ago (and Doc in ...what 2015???) but ... you know... shit takes a while to burn in.

Absolutely. I asked Chen Bing to teach me how to sink into the kuas in 2005. That's a tough row to hoe. In 2013 I started working with CXX and his teaching method was to sink. Every alternation, every change, sink. And at that time, I wasn't song enough to do it correctly. It took a few more years to get song kua. I'm still working on it.

Dong Yingjie writes about a similar approach in his taiji manual.

The mind must perform alternations nimbly, and then you will have the qualities of roundness and liveliness. The Thirteen Dynamics Song says to pay attention to the alternation of empty and full.

...The alternations of intention are like a flask half full of water: tip it to the left and it floods the left half, or tip it to the right and it floods the right half. If it can be like this, not only will you have obtained the qualities of roundness and liveliness, there will also be pleasure in the movements of your hands and feet. Once in such a delightful state, nobody could stop you from practicing if they tried.

I have friends who studied with Dong Kaiying who said he used this analogy as well.
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Re: TBMAG Push Hands Retreat Nov 22

Postby windwalker on Fri Dec 02, 2022 8:27 am

robert wrote:
origami_itto wrote: I actually got this correction from Alex Dong a year ago (and Doc in ...what 2015???) but ... you know... shit takes a while to burn in.

Absolutely. I asked Chen Bing to teach me how to sink into the kuas in 2005. That's a tough row to hoe. In 2013 I started working with CXX and his teaching method was to sink. Every alternation, every change, sink. And at that time, I wasn't song enough to do it correctly. It took a few more years to get song kua. I'm still working on it.

Dong Yingjie writes about a similar approach in his taiji manual.

The mind must perform alternations nimbly, and then you will have the qualities of roundness and liveliness. The Thirteen Dynamics Song says to pay attention to the alternation of empty and full.

...The alternations of intention are like a flask half full of water: tip it to the left and it floods the left half, or tip it to the right and it floods the right half. If it can be like this, not only will you have obtained the qualities of roundness and liveliness, there will also be pleasure in the movements of your hands and feet. Once in such a delightful state, nobody could stop you from practicing if they tried.

I have friends who studied with Dong Kaiying who said he used this analogy as well.


"Song" does indeed take awhile to develop,,maybe even longer to understand the point of attaining it....
not using force..

Dong Kaiying, used to teach in HI I believe...
along with some of the other family members...
Last edited by windwalker on Fri Dec 02, 2022 9:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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