elastic force; kung fu is body development

A collection of links to internal martial arts videos. Serious martial arts videos ONLY. Joke videos go to Off the Topic.

elastic force; kung fu is body development

Postby cloudz on Fri Nov 25, 2022 3:42 pm

Hi

some of you will remember Somotai (Derek)
I've chosen his video to explore elastic force.. but have a few other videos in mind

is this what you consider the use if elastic force,
what about striking
Would percussive striking change the quality of the force ?

also is this an example of demonstrating a use (usefullness), how do you think it is seen in exercises and forms
does the movement have to be externally different to athletic type movement, and in what way specifically.

How does long and short power feed into your paradigm of 'elastic force' ?

I have a few ideas about that myself, but thought it might make a good discussion topic for RSF

Here's the video

Last edited by cloudz on Fri Nov 25, 2022 3:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Regards
George

London UK
cloudz
Great Old One
 
Posts: 3393
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2008 3:00 am
Location: London UK

Re: elastic force; kung fu is body development

Postby cloudz on Mon Nov 28, 2022 6:27 am

No bites eh.
my fishing skills need an upgrade, clearly.

and his discussion about wrestlers sure sounded like it was about to get interesting.
*CUT!*
Last edited by cloudz on Mon Nov 28, 2022 6:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
Regards
George

London UK
cloudz
Great Old One
 
Posts: 3393
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2008 3:00 am
Location: London UK

Re: elastic force; kung fu is body development

Postby Doc Stier on Mon Nov 28, 2022 12:57 pm

What is demonstrated and discussed in the video, from my perspective, deals with the importance of rooting in a correct structure and how that supports the use of core strength for power emanating from the legs, hips and lower abdomen more than with elastic force.

I relate the latter to the optimal application of relaxed flexibility, which enhances both defensive and offensive speed, and when combined with properly synchronized movement and momentum of body mass through a properly aligned structure, also generates power. F=MxA. ymmv.
Last edited by Doc Stier on Mon Nov 28, 2022 4:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"First in the Mind and then in the Body."
User avatar
Doc Stier
Great Old One
 
Posts: 5693
Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2008 8:04 pm
Location: Woodcreek, TX

Re: elastic force; kung fu is body development

Postby cloudz on Tue Nov 29, 2022 3:13 am

I don't disagree with you there Doc. Great insight, thank you.

I think quite a few TCC practitioners have latched onto 'elastic force'. To me it is about Qualia. In so much as it fits well enough with a (body)quality cultivated by 'the training'.

your observation I think also captures the flip-side, in so much as qualities can be more than one dimensional. Usage matters, for example.
And One of the key differences is structure, and its use.
Last edited by cloudz on Tue Nov 29, 2022 3:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
Regards
George

London UK
cloudz
Great Old One
 
Posts: 3393
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2008 3:00 am
Location: London UK

Re: elastic force; kung fu is body development

Postby origami_itto on Tue Nov 29, 2022 7:07 am

Xu/Fa isn't necessarily "elastic force". As he sort of speaks near, it can be weight moving from one leg to the other, you take that energy and use it to generate force by translating it through spiral mechanics.

In some instances, your opponent's energy can put pressure on your frame that can be dealt with elastically, other times perhaps you're loading a core tendon. I think most of the "elastic force" stuff is just about the internal conditions, emptiness, getting the force down to the postural muscles and working those eccentrically with relaxation and slow smooth movements to increase blood flow, enervation, and tensile strength in the white tissue and bones.

Nothing is everything though.
The form is the notes, the quan is the music
Atomic Taijiquan|FB|YT|IG|X|
User avatar
origami_itto
Wuji
 
Posts: 5033
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:11 pm
Location: Palm Bay, FL

Re: elastic force; kung fu is body development

Postby LaoDan on Tue Nov 29, 2022 7:38 am

Like many things, “elastic force” is a combination of many factors. How power is absorbed into one’s root, and how it is projected out from the root, requires structural qualities supported by each of the joints in the path of transmission. But the quality of our muscles that support that structure are also important; neither resisting nor collapsing while maintaining the structure, without using isometric tension or being too slack. Like the air that supports the surface of a properly inflated rubber ball, both the air and the quality of the surface material matter. In humans, I think that the “elastic force” depends on our “stretch reflex.” Effective use of the stretch reflex depends both on how we hold our structure and the quality of the muscles that are maintaining that structure.

Since there are many things involved in “elastic force,” it is difficult discussing a video that appears to use “elastic force” but is not really broken down into the various necessary components. Functional structure and strength and angles is part of it, just like the surface and structure of a properly inflated rubber ball is; and the three dimensional quality of both the body structure and the rubber ball contribute to the “elastic force” quality. To discuss it, we need to be able to discuss individual components, but to use it, these components need to be smoothly integrated together.

Concepts like “taking the leading edge” and “being a step ahead” and “taking the center” could also be discussed, although those concepts may confuse the issue somewhat. I think that they are related to “elastic force,” as performed by Derek in his video, but that these concepts could lead to confusing application of the principles. Meeting while maintaining the “elastic force” facilitating structure likely contributes to “taking the leading edge” (etc.) as he engages and interacts, but that terminology may have specific meanings for his teaching curriculum and I am not certain that I know specifically how he is using this terminology (I’m more familiar with terms like pengjin, filling or flowing into the opponent’s gaps, pivoting or rolling at the point of contact, "nine pearl bends", etc.).

I quite like his demonstration, and I think that he exemplifies the use of “elastic force,” but it is a difficult subject to discuss. For example, he can demonstrate against his student how the quality of the contact point is difficult to read, and can produce the potential for both pulls and pushes without a telegraphing commitment to either one, but how does one discuss all those factors that go into having that quality? At least his student has the opportunity to feel it!
LaoDan
Wuji
 
Posts: 624
Joined: Mon May 17, 2010 11:51 am

Re: elastic force; kung fu is body development

Postby robert on Tue Nov 29, 2022 10:14 am

Someone pointed this out recently. Watch around 0:29, ZMQ uses wardoff to push someone and as ZMQ gets closer to the other guy his right arm compresses. When the guy is off the ground and offers less resistance ZMQ's right arm expands. You can slow it down to half speed and it's pretty clear.



You can see a certain level of elasticity, but there is also a skill to be able to use it.
The method of practicing this boxing art is nothing more than opening and closing, passive and active. The subtlety of the art is based entirely upon their alternations. Chen Xin
robert
Wuji
 
Posts: 741
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2017 11:32 am

Re: elastic force; kung fu is body development

Postby wayne hansen on Tue Nov 29, 2022 10:41 am

What u say CMC is doing here is directly trained in how push is done in his form
Not many do it
It is a result of folding and trained mainly in the solo san shou forms
Exercises I have done daily for nearly 50 years have recently produced a new level of elastic energy
I have just passed it on to my senior student and he can see it manifest
I don’t know what value it is I don’t know
Where it came from I don’t know but it is evident and feels great
By the way I have always liked Derecks stuff
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
wayne hansen
Wuji
 
Posts: 5660
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:52 pm

Re: elastic force; kung fu is body development

Postby origami_itto on Tue Nov 29, 2022 11:57 am

There is a definite forward lean when he issues
The form is the notes, the quan is the music
Atomic Taijiquan|FB|YT|IG|X|
User avatar
origami_itto
Wuji
 
Posts: 5033
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:11 pm
Location: Palm Bay, FL

Re: elastic force; kung fu is body development

Postby robert on Tue Nov 29, 2022 12:17 pm

wayne hansen wrote:What u say CMC is doing here is directly trained in how push is done in his form
Not many do it
It is a result of folding and trained mainly in the solo san shou forms
Exercises I have done daily for nearly 50 years have recently produced a new level of elastic energy
I have just passed it on to my senior student and he can see it manifest
I don’t know what value it is I don’t know
Where it came from I don’t know but it is evident and feels great
By the way I have always liked Derecks stuff

I think it's easiest to see in the arms so that's why I posted that video. I think it's more significant in the legs. As my legs become more elastic, they are able to adjust to better, more powerful alignments. As the legs become more connected and elastic ZMQ's treatise on the three levels of taijiquan makes more sense. It does feel great.
Last edited by robert on Tue Nov 29, 2022 12:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.
The method of practicing this boxing art is nothing more than opening and closing, passive and active. The subtlety of the art is based entirely upon their alternations. Chen Xin
robert
Wuji
 
Posts: 741
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2017 11:32 am

Re: elastic force; kung fu is body development

Postby wayne hansen on Tue Nov 29, 2022 1:48 pm

Do you mean Chengs 3 levels of relaxation
Arms
Legs
Waist
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
wayne hansen
Wuji
 
Posts: 5660
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:52 pm

Re: elastic force; kung fu is body development

Postby robert on Tue Nov 29, 2022 3:16 pm

In the Cheng Tzu's Thirteen Treatises book there is one essay called The Levels of Taijiquan. They are Heaven, Earth, and Human, and the first two levels have three sections - arms, legs, and spine.
The method of practicing this boxing art is nothing more than opening and closing, passive and active. The subtlety of the art is based entirely upon their alternations. Chen Xin
robert
Wuji
 
Posts: 741
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2017 11:32 am

Re: elastic force; kung fu is body development

Postby wayne hansen on Tue Nov 29, 2022 4:10 pm

That’s what I thought u meant
That’s what Huangs 5 exercises were based on before they changed the order and how they were executed
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
wayne hansen
Wuji
 
Posts: 5660
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:52 pm

Re: elastic force; kung fu is body development

Postby marvin8 on Tue Nov 29, 2022 5:02 pm

robert wrote:Someone pointed this out recently. Watch around 0:29, ZMQ uses wardoff to push someone and as ZMQ gets closer to the other guy his right arm compresses. When the guy is off the ground and offers less resistance ZMQ's right arm expands. You can slow it down to half speed and it's pretty clear.



You can see a certain level of elasticity, but there is also a skill to be able to use it.

You may mean this post. At 3:06 in part, I saw ZMQ absorb the force to the back foot. As ZMQ shifts forward, he doesn't move the contact point (elbow), then issues.

marvin8 wrote:
robert wrote:The problem is that some people didn't get the idea of jin. Many still don't. How can you be loose and relaxed, but not collapse?

ZMQ pushing. I like the push at 0:30, ZMQ uses ward off to push the guy and his arm doesn't collapse, it's a good example of jin. It's also clear that he's not using his "shoulder" (deltoid) to push, his upper arm is extended when he starts to push. The same thing is shown at 3:06 where he pushes Robert Smith, and again at 3:09.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSYPOhSgiis

ZMQ also shows strength against strength (jin).

Yes. At 3:06, ZMQ:

1. presses (ji) causing Gibbs to roll back (lu) 2. as Gibbs shifts his weight to the front foot and attacks, ZMQ adheres by bending his elbow 3. while bending his elbow, ZMQ slightly rolls back, then shifts his weight to the front foot (shortens lu) and issues push with forearm (ward off/Ti Fang RSF thread), attached->resistance->withdraw->acceleration (li?).

Image
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSYPOhSgiist=3m6s


At .29,

Image
User avatar
marvin8
Wuji
 
Posts: 2917
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:30 pm

Re: elastic force; kung fu is body development

Postby origami_itto on Tue Nov 29, 2022 6:13 pm

Okay so what about this. I called it "ti fang" but he didn't describe it as such. He called it just something they did in his Wu Ji style.

The form is the notes, the quan is the music
Atomic Taijiquan|FB|YT|IG|X|
User avatar
origami_itto
Wuji
 
Posts: 5033
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:11 pm
Location: Palm Bay, FL

Next

Return to Video Links

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 19 guests