elastic force; kung fu is body development

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Re: elastic force; kung fu is body development

Postby wayne hansen on Tue Nov 29, 2022 6:54 pm

Now that’s just silly
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: elastic force; kung fu is body development

Postby origami_itto on Tue Nov 29, 2022 7:09 pm

wayne hansen wrote:Now that’s just silly


JD is an interesting cat for sure. The latter half of that is pretty solid I think once I got the hang of being uke for him.

This is one way I've seen it demoed/developed. Ray Hayward via T.T. Liang via CMC et al

Image
Last edited by origami_itto on Tue Nov 29, 2022 7:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: elastic force; kung fu is body development

Postby windwalker on Tue Nov 29, 2022 7:22 pm

origami_itto wrote:Okay so what about this. I called it "ti fang" but he didn't describe it as such. He called it just something they did in his Wu Ji style.



some notes on "ti fang"

Image
http://www.fairtradetaichi.org/news/201 ... ed-ti-fang
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Re: elastic force; kung fu is body development

Postby marvin8 on Wed Nov 30, 2022 2:33 pm

windwalker wrote:some notes on "ti fang"

Image
http://www.fairtradetaichi.org/news/201 ... ed-ti-fang

Wilson Pitts: Ti feng, opponent rooted and unrooted.

taiji coach
Oct 11, 2022

catch and release

Image
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5_PlQvZv0U
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Re: elastic force; kung fu is body development

Postby origami_itto on Thu Dec 01, 2022 9:07 am

marvin8 wrote:
windwalker wrote:some notes on "ti fang"

Image
http://www.fairtradetaichi.org/news/201 ... ed-ti-fang

Wilson Pitts: Ti feng, opponent rooted and unrooted.

taiji coach
Oct 11, 2022

catch and release

Image
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5_PlQvZv0U


So I tend to think of it in terms of CMC's description, in relation to incoming force directly on the center.

There are times, however, when a force comes from the
front causing one side of the triangle to collapse. What
then would be the result? It is illustrated in the following diagram. As shown here when the force comes directly from the front and without
deviating to the sides or up or down,
we no longer talk about turning left
or right or cycling up or down as the
way to yield. We talk only about
receiving the attack. In T' ai Chi
Ch'uan, we use the opponent's strong
attack against him - which is what the Book of Changes
describes as K'an, the trigram of "the Abyss" and the
hexagram of danger. This is the primary reason to use
the term "T'ai Chi" to name this martial art, for it
means to cause the attacking force to dissolve in emptiness. When the opponent realizes that he has failed, his
only option is to withdraw and try to escape. During the
opponent's withdrawal of his attacking force, my abdomen, which has absorbed and stored the force of his attack, uses this power to attack his retreat. This response
is what the Classics refer to as t'i-fang. Fang means to
release.
I then become a circle again. The opponent will
be at a loss as to what he can do and is thrown out a
great distance. This fa-chin (releasing strength) is a
unique characteristic of T'ai Chi Ch'uan.


But I will agree it's not it, as in the one with me, I'm still pressing forward when going back.

In the one with Ray, it's maybe ti fang, don't know what he calls it... receiving energy maybe? Will have to ask. It's the elasticity that I'm talking about. The incoming force depletes and he sends it back. You can see in the first push how it goes back into his body, the second one the arms come in like a deformed circle and then become round again as the student flies back. He's absorbing and rebounding some and letting the student push the rest of it.
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Re: elastic force; kung fu is body development

Postby windwalker on Thu Dec 01, 2022 9:15 am

origami_itto wrote:But I will agree it's not it, as in the one with me, I'm still pressing forward when going back.

In the one with Ray, it's maybe ti fang, don't know what he calls it... receiving energy maybe? Will have to ask. It's the elasticity that I'm talking about. The incoming force depletes and he sends it back. You can see in the first push how it goes back into his body, the second one the arms come in like a deformed circle and then become round again as the student flies back. He's absorbing and rebounding some and letting the student push the rest of it.


Offered the link as way of viewing it....
Not really something I advocate nor practice to do..

As with many things there are levels of practice,
which sometimes become counterproductive once an understanding has been reached..

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Re: elastic force; kung fu is body development

Postby origami_itto on Thu Dec 01, 2022 9:24 am

windwalker wrote:
origami_itto wrote:But I will agree it's not it, as in the one with me, I'm still pressing forward when going back.

In the one with Ray, it's maybe ti fang, don't know what he calls it... receiving energy maybe? Will have to ask. It's the elasticity that I'm talking about. The incoming force depletes and he sends it back. You can see in the first push how it goes back into his body, the second one the arms come in like a deformed circle and then become round again as the student flies back. He's absorbing and rebounding some and letting the student push the rest of it.


Offered the link as way of viewing it....
Not really something I advocate nor practice to do..

As with many things there are levels of practice,
which sometimes become counterproductive once an understanding has been reached..

happy holidays.


The practice as described is something that I DID in actual application, but that we didn't train explicitly per se.

In security contexts, I would slap someone's chest with both hands and push a little, they resist that and I would withdraw and turn my hands so I gathered and grasped their shirt and pulled them towards me a little off balance, delivered into my hands. Then the part I DID train, step forward and issue long power through their chest. 300 lbs feels like nothing, they fly, every time. I have their shirt to keep them from falling. Their feet touch several feet behind where they last stood and my face hasn't changed and they start to reconsider their judgment.

But that's live at a bar, so much easier to pull off than in training against someone who knows what's coming and when.

And, like, I KNOW you can think somebody into falling down without touching them. The rest of us have to go through stages where we develop the roots and trunk before supping on the fruit of those branches.
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Re: elastic force; kung fu is body development

Postby windwalker on Thu Dec 01, 2022 9:31 am

origami_itto wrote:And, like, I KNOW you can think somebody into falling down without touching them.
The rest of us have to go through stages where we develop the roots and trunk before supping on the fruit of those branches.



Actually you don't know what I think... :)

凌空勁 Língkōng jìn. "volley power"
as part of an over all method of development has nothing to do with thinking at all....
touched or not, its the same...


Indirectly people practicing Taiji, if it's correct, are all working on the underlying principles by which it works.
They may not realize it, nor their practice be oriented towards deepening this aspect.
Last edited by windwalker on Thu Dec 01, 2022 5:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: elastic force; kung fu is body development

Postby everything on Thu Dec 01, 2022 12:51 pm

haven't done that at a bar, but it's "standard judo" when pushed, pull, when pulled, push. works well in a dojo against beginner to intermediate belts, as well, BUT not really when everyone gets skilled at it. then we are all kind of "standing" not giving "energy" to borrow.... that's really when you start thinking that "this other stuff" is interesting/applicable, but probably only if you were made aware of it IRL. otherwise it sounds crazy, and/ or there is the part of the iceberg that's not possible to be aware of.
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Re: elastic force; kung fu is body development

Postby wayne hansen on Fri Dec 02, 2022 11:58 am

Yes Judo leverage not Tai Chi
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