Wu (Hao) style Taijiquan

[wayne hansen]

Sun was part of the Hao lineage
A lineage that didn’t seem to keep the same form from one generation to the next
More interested in principles than form

[Bao]

Sun was part of the Hao lineage
A lineage that didn’t seem to keep the same form from one generation to the next
More interested in principles than form

It would be strange if you didn't think so. After all, the principles are what is important. How you arrange movements into a sequence is not. Form is only there to express principle. If it doesn't, practice is empty and a waste of time.

[HotSoup]

Alex always talks about it in terms of energy, he says the energy of each of the four main forms is different and is for a different purpose.

Always wondered why the Dongs (and all other folks keeping several versions of the same forms learnt from different teachers) never tried to synthesize them into a single form that can be practiced in four different ways, instead. This could save a lot of time by not learning the excessive choreo variations (and then having to switch context all the time).

I’d imagine it may have to do with a different pedagogy—process several variations to get the principle, instead of a more western approach of trying to understand the principle first to apply it then to a multitude of variations, but it also could be just “we never thought of it” kind of thing

[Bao]

Always wondered why the Dongs xxx never tried to synthesize them into a single form that can be practiced in four different ways, instead.

I’d imagine it may have to do with a different pedagogy—process several variations to get the principle, instead of a more western approach of trying to understand the principle first to apply it then to a multitude of variations, but it also could be just “we never thought of it” kind of thing

I think it has a lot to do with Chinese tradition and mind-set. It's important to carry the history onwards and show respect to your teachers and theirs. So you try to preserve how they did. Then you can also show your students different ways of interpretations. It's like studying different masters calligraphy. If you understand how and why they did something the way they did, you can understand the art better and become a better painter. The problem is that tai chi movements, forms and exercises are not as easily to preserve in their original form. But I think it's important to to teach various forms in a very strict and standardised manner. Then you can more easily see and understand the differences. Then when you understand the principles and can look backwards, seeing how other people have thought and practiced, you can create your own personal style. IMO, history and tradition is important, just as individual expression and experimentation. You need to understand the basics and fundamentals in order to have the right tools to create something new.

[windwalker]

Hi

Just a few comments?.

Surely the art that you practice must be trained according to the theory and methods laid down for its fighting skills.

Does it really matter whether its postures are high or low? or the movements are in the correct order or even how they look in a book ?.

The Hao family 96 form was produced for the book, its not the true form or training methods that are passed down to disciples ( in door students ).

There are many different training skills that you would not know, because they have not been made public.

So don’t worry about your form just the training of your arts boxing theory and methods .

Agree

Although it was something I had to come to terms within myself...

Things shown publicly are often modified for various reasons.....
Not all students are trained in the same way,,,nor learn the same things....

For the more commercial gyms, "commercial" not necessarily a bad thing...
Each of the main family styles having enterprises that carry on their teachings.
Having standardize curriculums as one of the perceived benefits along with being a historical
direct representative of the family style.


For what are called "folk" teachers ie those in the parks and such...they might be of high skill level not necessarily tied to any one family style.
Or in some cases implicitly tied to them, known for such but not recognized by the families as being a formal representative for them..


Their teaching might be said to be more in line with the original intent having the freedom to do so..
The same freedom that allows them to focus and teach the what they might feel to be the essence of their craft.

It's not for everyone...


Something in meeting my last taiji I was forced to realize noting what seemed to be differences in students practices
noting different methods of practices found in other taiji styles.


Asking my teacher about this he said

“ The names of the taiji styles come from famous family members who were historical taiji teachers.
Yang, Wu, and Sun, or places where taiji was developed Chen village, Guang Ping village.

When you understand taiji you can call what you do as you wish, you can name it xxx taiji”
He laughed as he said this, suddenly he became more quite, reflective, deep in thought and said
“there is only one taiji”

Often work with people with 10s of yrs of practice in taiji.

Most of the time...its hard to help them correct their practice.
They have not mastered the basics of their style...In trying to keep what they have not mastered

feeling they can, by learning other approaches tweaking it enough to make it work.... ...

Makes it very difficult, if not impossible...to help them to correct their practice.

"Correct" meaning in the direction they feel about what "taiji" is

[windwalker]

Alex always talks about it in terms of energy, he says the energy of each of the four main forms is different and is for a different purpose.

agree

Although one would have to be at a certain level of practice to appreciate it..

having worked with people from some of the major family styles, asking for help in their practices..

Have found in most cases it's not really possible as long as they try to keep what they feel they know...

Just too, different...at their level....

something I also found,,,in my own path...

[origami_itto]

Alex always talks about it in terms of energy, he says the energy of each of the four main forms is different and is for a different purpose.

agree

Although one would have to be at a certain level of practice to appreciate it..

having worked with people from some of the major family styles, asking for help in their practices..

Have found in most cases it's not really possible as long as they try to keep what they feel they know...

Just too, different...at their level....

something I also found,,,in my own path...

People always talk about these secrets people are holding back or hiding from outsiders, but as far as I'm concerned I can barely manage to get the basics of the easily publicly accessible stuff so I'll worry about entering that door when and if I ever feel fit to knock on it.

[Appledog]

Alex always talks about it in terms of energy, he says the energy of each of the four main forms is different and is for a different purpose.

Always wondered why the Dongs (and all other folks keeping several versions of the same forms learnt from different teachers) never tried to synthesize them into a single form that can be practiced in four different ways, instead. This could save a lot of time by not learning the excessive choreo variations (and then having to switch context all the time).

I’d imagine it may have to do with a different pedagogy—process several variations to get the principle, instead of a more western approach of trying to understand the principle first to apply it then to a multitude of variations, but it also could be just “we never thought of it” kind of thing

This is a very interesting and important question and I would love to answer it but there is not enough space in the margins here to write it down.

If I tried it would go something like, as it turns out, all of these forms represent people's perspectives on how to teach and learn tai chi.

In other words they are 'grand experiments'.

In some respects the transition to yi lu and er lu succeeded, in other respects it failed. Now we have more than five styles of tai chi to choose from. If you compare chen to yang, then you can ask why did they need to make a hao and sun style. Dong's rationale for keeping the kaihe set is one 'observation' over the 'perspectives' and both the successes and failures of various 'perspectives'. The edit here is, none of these perspectives really failed, they all kind of improved upon each other in various ways, but sometimes when you fix one thing you break something else, and it can be helpful to just take a step back and try to drink in the whole grand perspective of the thing instead of focusing solely on one detail here or there.

In my family style we also do Sun style for the same reasons. So I found what Dong said to be quite funny. I think I like the guy. If I ever meet him I'll buy him a beer.

[dacheng]

Now, this is not something adding much to the discussion, but anyway, just a recent promotional clip of our "young" teacher Zhai Shizong, who is Zhai Weichuan's son. BTW. I and my group appear in one of the photos included in this clip.

[origami_itto]

Alex always talks about it in terms of energy, he says the energy of each of the four main forms is different and is for a different purpose.

Always wondered why the Dongs (and all other folks keeping several versions of the same forms learnt from different teachers) never tried to synthesize them into a single form that can be practiced in four different ways, instead. This could save a lot of time by not learning the excessive choreo variations (and then having to switch context all the time).

I’d imagine it may have to do with a different pedagogy—process several variations to get the principle, instead of a more western approach of trying to understand the principle first to apply it then to a multitude of variations, but it also could be just “we never thought of it” kind of thing

This is a very interesting and important question and I would love to answer it but there is not enough space in the margins here to write it down.

If I tried it would go something like, as it turns out, all of these forms represent people's perspectives on how to teach and learn tai chi.

In other words they are 'grand experiments'.

In some respects the transition to yi lu and er lu succeeded, in other respects it failed. Now we have more than five styles of tai chi to choose from. If you compare chen to yang, then you can ask why did they need to make a hao and sun style. Dong's rationale for keeping the kaihe set is one 'observation' over the 'perspectives' and both the successes and failures of various 'perspectives'. The edit here is, none of these perspectives really failed, they all kind of improved upon each other in various ways, but sometimes when you fix one thing you break something else, and it can be helpful to just take a step back and try to drink in the whole grand perspective of the thing instead of focusing solely on one detail here or there.

In my family style we also do Sun style for the same reasons. So I found what Dong said to be quite funny. I think I like the guy. If I ever meet him I'll buy him a beer.

I've only learned a tiny piece of the simplified form, just getting into the second section after a year on the first, and I was working on the saber form before my knee surgery so I am by no means an authority or good example of the style. My hope is that by taking it slow and only moving on when I'm really comfortable with the movement and know some applications that the Yang long and kaihe will be faster and easier to master.

That being said, as I understand it Dong Ying Jie's fast form is exactly the single form synthesizing the others. (Yang slow, yang fast, kaihe)

To my mind that suggests that the individual forms, by focusing on a particular energy/perspective are like, to borrow a term from Adam Mizner, polishing one facet of the diamond, and the fast/fajin/family form is the finished jewel. Mixing the exercises before faces are smooth rounds the edges and dulls the shine.

The GST in 4 directions exercise Dong Zeng Chen created that I posted is a way to practice the different energies and footwork with a single sequence for focusing and simplicity.

[dacheng]

Wu style 13 continuous broadsword. Similarily as continuous sword, the broadsword form is practiced the same way - you can repeat the 13 sequences many times, only changing direction after each 13 series.

[wayne hansen]

Nice form moves like the other Wu/Ng style

[dacheng]

And 13 continuous long pole/spear. Practiced the same way, with continuously repeating all sequences.

[Bob]

Good stuff - Thank you for posting

[yeniseri]

Don't forget that Sun style is an offshoot of Wu/Hao (style/variation/perception/insight, etc) and for the martial element, it still has a formidable base, despite fewer practitioners