Modern Traditional: The Hip Hinge

[Appledog]

'The hip hinge is one of the most important movements... knee pain, back pain, hip pain, etc.' The hip hinge is a well-known exercise. Here, in Wang Ziping's therapeutic qigong, we see a hip hinge exercise:



If we analyze the hip hinge from a modern sports medicine perspective, what are the values and benefits of this, especially applied to traditional internal martial arts? Does it translate? From the traditional perspective, does your art incorporate a hip hinge? Do you feel this is used to generate power, or generate shape? I think that this exercise, given it's presence in an extant set of qigong, would be a good "first exercise" for a "new set of modern, traditional qigong" designed to bring traditional arts into a more modern perspective, while still fully retaining their traditional roots. For example, I can tell you that in our family's style of xinyi liuhe, it certainly feels as if this is an important movement.

Muslim si ba: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ke5BnWPDIcQ
Shanghai xinyi: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GfsbLoQpLM

But, from the perspective of (Yang style) tai chi, I feel many people may struggle to see it's usefulness. I appreciate any comments and advice on incorporating this move into a "modern traditional" set!

[Giles]

I like the first video. In all my classes I do a similar move (a version of the kua squat) that is in line with the do's and don'ts the guy mentions here. But we go lower, so that after a while you can bring your lower front ribs into contact with the thighs and actually rest the upper body on the thighs for a few moments. During which the back stays absolutely straight from tailbone to top of the head, like he says. While the knees bend 'in sympathy' but move forwards in space very minimally. The feeling is indeed like the hips are a huge hinge. We start with the arms stretched horizontally forward (meaning a 90°angle between horizontal arms and vertical torso) and this angle stays unchanged as the hips hinge, so that at the lowest point the fingertips are pointing at the ground about 40cm in front of the toes. Eyes follow fingertips.
As you come up again, you have the feeling of the hips and the lower back sinking into the feet, even as they move further away from the feet in physical terms. And when coming up, go slower. And slower.

I think this exercise is extremely useful in various ways. Also because it deepens and softens the kua (inguinal crease) for all the movements where the body stays upright. For instance every iteration of the bow stance. Whe rotating the waist/hips, things are much more fluid and easy when you do exercises like these beforehand. The range of rotational movement increases as well. And a move like Needle at Sea Bottom is basically this kua squat done with the weight 100% on the back leg.

I can't get much out of the second video. Among other things, both people are clearly bending/curving their backs as they go down, which to my understanding is a big no-no for exercises like these.

[everything]

agreed on the second video. that is not a hip hinge (should be folding at the "kua" as if you're sitting back toward a chair). they seem to bending at lumbar or thoracic spine areas.

hip hinge (especially something like doing deadlift) is an important "functional strength" move just for "daily living". almost everyone has to sit down, sit up, stand up. almost everyone has to bend down and pick something moderately heavy up on occasion, maybe quite frequently around this time of year when packages are arriving at your door. so even before talking about MA, there's this low bar as a sort of "normal person" pre-req. this is sort of where deadlift, farmer's carry, suitcase carry, and overhead press ideas for "daily activity" seem sensible.

[origami_itto]

huang's Song gong 3 has this forward bend section where you are folding at the hips and using the tailbone to manipulate the torso. Seems relevant. Otherwise, the straight and upright back deep squat with flat feet exactly as Giles described, I do all day to stay loose.

https://youtu.be/p1S78x0fOJo?t=236

[wayne hansen]

If you get something out of these two exercises you have been wasting your time up until now
I can see where it may help weight lifters but isn’t that what the smith machine is for

[Giles]

As I said, I use the 'bigger' hip hinge, or this type of kua squat, in my classes. (Not the little version in the first video). Especially for the beginners. It's no longer of great interest in my own training, but it takes most beginners a few months to be able to do it properly, especially if they are required to stay down at 'maximum hinge' for, say, 15 seconds and then slowly come up again over 15 seconds. I sometimes introduce it with: "Now it's time for your favourite exercise..." It really changes the way they can use their hips and legs and back in other situations.

[Appledog]

If you get something out of these two exercises you have been wasting your time up until now
I can see where it may help weight lifters but isn’t that what the smith machine is for

I think your opinions have value, but you tend not to explain them which leaves people unsure. For example In the first post I already acknowledged that Tai Chi people may find the exercise somewhat meaningless. If you explain what you mean by 'wasting your time' it would be easier for me to learn something here.

It would actually have been taken as a compliment save for the weightlifters thing Actually for myself, I find this exercise helped to activate the mingmen and dantien areas because you are supposed to engage those areas during the movement (see 2nd video where arms are extended).

I will say, that the point of the 2nd video is precisely that they are beginners who can't keep their own backs straight. If your own style includes jibengong directly for this purpose, I could understand you a bit more, but without it I think the exercise does have some value, as Giles mentioned, even if only for beginners.

Anyways the whole point of this thread is, that if it is possible to either drop this exercise or replace it with something -- that is what I am looking for. You are the only one yet who was critical of the hip hinge despite it's similarity to Huang's #3. Maybe you mean, it is better to just do Huang's exercises? Or is the hip hinge itself, in any form, simply not useful to tai chi and xinyi?

[everything]

"king" of hip hinge (and strength training) is probably deadlift. whole body compound lift. super functional. basically: pick up heavy thing. put it down. hard to imagine something more functional.

if you decide to go a bit far, your weak link will probably be your grip. maybe for some MAists, it's a benefit.

can you replace it? it turns out KB swings are a great replacement ... to the point that as a temporary replacement, they help competitive lifters improve their deadlift (without doing more deadlifting). you can also do variations such as single leg Romanian deadlift. your entire "posterior chain" will be stronger. that is "GPP" that is helpful for any activity. not sure what you are trying to re-invent.

[wayne hansen]

I think u mean Huangs fourth exercise
You can keep repeating the sitting and raising part of the exercise without the hanging
I would often get my students to do it while I went around and corrected their form
The iron buffalo and turtle from the Wu 24 noi gung are also good

[origami_itto]

I think u mean Huangs fourth exercise
You can keep repeating the sitting and raising part of the exercise without the hanging
I would often get my students to do it while I went around and corrected their form
The iron buffalo and turtle from the Wu 24 noi gung are also good

Well like you said, nobody teaches it in the right order anymore
I linked directly to the section I'm referring to above to remove any uncertainty.

[HotSoup]

The iron buffalo and turtle from the Wu 24 noi gung are also good

Wayne, you mentioned this set several times over the years, but I couldn’t find any other information on it. Is there a video out there to see what exercises you’re referring to look like?

For example, I know of two versions of the exercise called “the iron ox ploughing the dirt” which are technically two different things having nothing in common. It would be helpful to have some reference. Thanks in advance!

[wayne hansen]

I think I heard one of Dan Dockertys student does a course in the 24
I have seen another guy do the first 12 but it was pretty bad
Mantak Chia shows then in his books but gets the names mixed up
I think the version you of the iron buffalo you are talking about is from the muscle change set and is quite different

[Bhassler]

Hip hinge.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNPpwIo ... l=RainMood

[wayne hansen]

I feel she uses spinal curling rather than hip hinge as explained here
I find it hard to take clips that have sound effects added seriously

[Bhassler]

I generally watch videos without the sound-- in most cases the noise is just noise, and detracts (or distracts) from seeing what the person is actually doing.

I don't practice hsing i, so have no real opinion on whether what she's doing is good or bad, but the hip hinge is quite overt and obvious. The spinal action is obvious, as well, but that doesn't preclude a hip hinge from being part of the movement. I would just about guarantee that anyone can produce more power with a hip hinge than with any kind of pure spinal motion. The advantage of spinal motion is in timing, angle, etc. rather than pure force generation.