Chang Dongsheng's Yang Style Taijiquan

A collection of links to internal martial arts videos. Serious martial arts videos ONLY. Joke videos go to Off the Topic.

Re: Chang Dongsheng's Yang Style Taijiquan

Postby marvin8 on Mon Feb 06, 2023 12:12 am

marvin8 wrote:
origami_itto wrote:
Bao wrote:You can find a lot of old tai chi videos w tai chi masters and practitioners have a more or less pronounced leaning: Dong Yingjie, Lee Ying-Arn, Yang Shouzhong etc. Why would you believe that they would lean for no reason? That would not make any sense at all. So there must be a reason, right? So, can't you use your own fantasy or intellectual capacity and come up with one or two reasons? :P

It's a discussion board, bro, let's discuss some things.

For sake of discussion: What are the mechanics of front cut (or osoto gari), coordination of hands (e.g., kuzushi) and throw, hips back (exercise flexibility/ROM), etc.? If you're too straight up, the opponent may counter you. Also, your ability to change with opponent's reactions—setting up another throw.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOIlR_suG04


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHMgiC3taZA

origami_itto wrote:I have no clue man i don't do judo.

No, some have said tai chi has shuai chiao in it. What are the mechanics of shuai chiao's front cut ...? leaning?

Image

origami_itto wrote:I haven't made any value judgment or statement, merely asked why he stuck his butt out.
wayne hansen wrote:Show me where in his form when he sticks his hips back that the move indicates the aforementioned Ossy gussy.

As origami_itto says, Chang "sticks his butt out" in the form, not while doing front cut. johnwang has posted Chang with extended arms and "his butt stuck out." This is a common stance in grappling, wrestling and BJJ too—hand fighting, defending against takedowns (hips back) and setting up offense.

Chang cucumber guard:

Image
User avatar
marvin8
Wuji
 
Posts: 2917
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:30 pm

Re: Chang Dongsheng's Yang Style Taijiquan

Postby Bao on Mon Feb 06, 2023 1:07 am

origami_itto wrote: It's a discussion board, bro, let's discuss some things.


One of my teachers likes telling stories and to make up things. He seriously claims that the creator of the "Leaning Wu" style damaged one of his legs which made him lean. ::)

marvin8 wrote: This is a common stance in grappling, wrestling and BJJ too—hand fighting, defending against takedowns (hips back) and setting up offense.

Chang cucumber guard:

[img]https://imgur.com/wDDjeCr.gif


Exactly.

In MMA people also tend to keep their guard a little bit lower than in common boxing and definitely not as high as in Muay Thai. Tai Chi is not boxing and it does not only teach defense from punches. The forward lean protects against take downs, throws, sweeps and against kicks at the lower area.

The other aspect is about natural structural strength. A triangle is that strongest geometrical shape. A pyramid lasts longer than a vertical rectangular building, it's much stronger.

IMO, a straight, vertical stance is important to teach beginners. You need to learn how to feel the centerline/Zhongding and keep erect, learn how to achieve strength by turning, spinning around around the center-line while using the waist "like a wheel". Before understanding how to use and maintain the center-line, leaning should not be emphasized. Rather it should develop gradually and naturally in your progress and as you keep on practicing free push hands.

I believe that the forward lean, and how pronounced it is, is mostly a matter of taste and focus of practice. It's not only Cheng Man-ching who prefers the perfectly straight, vertical posture. Some of Yang Cheng Fu students do show a quite pronounced leaning, but others, as Niu Chunming and Li Yaxuan preferred a quite straight, vertical posture.
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 9007
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: Chang Dongsheng's Yang Style Taijiquan

Postby wayne hansen on Mon Feb 06, 2023 1:20 am

Looking at Chang there I take it there are no raising front kicks in SJ
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
wayne hansen
Wuji
 
Posts: 5660
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:52 pm

Re: Chang Dongsheng's Yang Style Taijiquan

Postby origami_itto on Mon Feb 06, 2023 10:47 am

Doc Stier wrote:The idea that all TCC of any style should be performed with a vertically upright body at all times is a concept introduced in the 1970's through the widespread popularity at that time of the Cheng Man-Ching style.

Older photos of Yang and Wu Style TCC masters clearly illustrate that they did not consider this to be either necessary or desirable for effective live combat applications of form set postures.


I understand leaning (properly) to be an advanced point of instruction. Not against it, per se.

So the answer to my question is that it is related to the purpose of his taijiquan, namely a supplemental calisthenics to support shuai jiao.
The form is the notes, the quan is the music
Atomic Taijiquan|FB|YT|IG|X|
User avatar
origami_itto
Wuji
 
Posts: 5031
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:11 pm
Location: Palm Bay, FL

Re: Chang Dongsheng's Yang Style Taijiquan

Postby marvin8 on Mon Feb 06, 2023 4:07 pm

wayne hansen wrote:Looking at Chang there I take it there are no raising front kicks in SJ

Right. Which is why Henry (and other grapplers) switch from a "sticking his butt out and leaning" wrestling posture to a more upright stance, to defend against kicks and strikes in MMA.

marvin8 wrote:Henry Cejudo Olympic gold medalist in wrestling and UFC champion, "I have a nice rounded back for wrestling. ... Now, bring this stuff up. I still have that nice little curve, rounded back."

Image


To that, he includes a following step with half punches (feints) to disguise it. (Strikes [threats] tend to get more reaction [control] from the opponent than Chang's arm twirling.) The half punches and following step are an entry to Henry's takedowns. Henry is able to push off the back foot, while his lead leg is "very light—like a fencer's."

Image
User avatar
marvin8
Wuji
 
Posts: 2917
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:30 pm

Re: Chang Dongsheng's Yang Style Taijiquan

Postby Bhassler on Mon Feb 06, 2023 9:43 pm

Chang and Cejudo are using very different body alignments. Just because postures bear a passing resemblance to one another does not make them the same.
Bhassler
Great Old One
 
Posts: 3546
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 8:05 pm
Location: xxxxxxx

Re: Chang Dongsheng's Yang Style Taijiquan

Postby Subitai on Mon Feb 06, 2023 11:20 pm

Thanks for posting this Windwalker.

Just wanted to say It brought me to a nice discovery that makes sense for me. Upon watching your initial vid I found the original (where I think it came from)

Grand Mater Chang Tung-sheng , King of Shuai-chiao , performing for Tai Chi course at OSU



That's Dr Daniel Weng who I met a few times whilst living in San Jose area. He asked me to join his team but I was busy at my then current school. Anyway he says in the video at about 2min : That Chang Sifu, met up with and exchanged with the famous General Li Jinglin.

As soon as I heard that, all the pieces seem to make sense to me afterwards. Since, Li Jinglin loved to met up with and exchange with MANY contemporary masters of his day.

In my own lineage of Gu Ruzhang and Sun Lu tang...again he was friends with them as well.

Our gim set "Tai yu " grand ultimate straight sword set comes from him.

Now back to Chang Sifu .... as I watched him, my first reaction was, here's an obvious grappling master doing a Yang Style version of tai chi VERY similar to ours. (id say at least 85% similar maybe 90) BUT.....with Chang Sifu adding his own flavor for certain spots.

But that makes sense because it seems to me that Gu RuZhang did take the same Yang Base form and added his own. Also, some ideas from Sun Lu tang.
......................

I don't really care or mind that Chang Sifu may stick his butt out at times. To me every master puts their own spin on things. It's so obvious watchin that Harry Gross guy that Grappling and SJ skills are heavily influenced in that school.

At that end of the day All I really care about is...can they pull off what they're teaching VS live, non compliant opponents.

Best way to find out...would be to meet up and spar around to exchange :)
User avatar
Subitai
Huajing
 
Posts: 369
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2014 12:25 pm
Location: Southeastern, CT USA

Re: Chang Dongsheng's Yang Style Taijiquan

Postby marvin8 on Mon Feb 06, 2023 11:43 pm

Bhassler wrote:Chang and Cejudo are using very different body alignments. Just because postures bear a passing resemblance to one another does not make them the same.

I tried to quote and specifically address origami_itto's, "sticking his butt out and leaning." Both Chang and Cejudo have their hips back and are leaning, which is normal and effective under grappling rules.

Of course, there may be differences in body alignment between gi/no-gi, etc.
User avatar
marvin8
Wuji
 
Posts: 2917
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:30 pm

Re: Chang Dongsheng's Yang Style Taijiquan

Postby origami_itto on Tue Feb 07, 2023 6:51 am

marvin8 wrote:
Bhassler wrote:Chang and Cejudo are using very different body alignments. Just because postures bear a passing resemblance to one another does not make them the same.

I tried to quote and specifically address origami_itto's, "sticking his butt out and leaning." Both Chang and Cejudo have their hips back and are leaning, which is normal and effective under grappling rules.

Of course, there may be differences in body alignment between gi/no-gi, etc.


So that gets back to the rules defining the form (as in general form-follows-function not specifically referencing a kung fu form though in this case it's also applicable).

It's why literally nobody turns the front toe in while sparring.

Coincidentally regarding an upright posture, that's a fundamental concern in BJJ... in mount. I've seen it explained that if you're slouching or bending you're breaking your energy and making it easier for the guy on the bottom to control your head. Certainly in Taijiquan if you are leaning improperly you are likewise compromising the integrity of your overall carriage.
The form is the notes, the quan is the music
Atomic Taijiquan|FB|YT|IG|X|
User avatar
origami_itto
Wuji
 
Posts: 5031
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:11 pm
Location: Palm Bay, FL

Re: Chang Dongsheng's Yang Style Taijiquan

Postby Bao on Tue Feb 07, 2023 8:55 am

origami_itto wrote:Coincidentally regarding an upright posture, that's a fundamental concern in BJJ... in mount. I've seen it explained that if you're slouching or bending you're breaking your energy and making it easier for the guy on the bottom to control your head. Certainly in Taijiquan if you are leaning improperly you are likewise compromising the integrity of your overall carriage.


Chang is leaning while keeping his back straight, he doesn’t bend his back. Leaning and bending are two different things. Leaning doesn’t mean that you are compromising your structure.
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 9007
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: Chang Dongsheng's Yang Style Taijiquan

Postby Bob on Tue Feb 07, 2023 12:00 pm

origami_itto wrote:
marvin8 wrote:
Bhassler wrote:Chang and Cejudo are using very different body alignments. Just because postures bear a passing resemblance to one another does not make them the same.


It's why literally nobody turns the front toe in while sparring.


Wouldn't make that generalization - good mantis practitioners "close the door" to minimize getting kicked in the groin and good practitioners practice certain kicks to get around that door - keeping the door closed to 30% also is good set up for tripping and blocking incoming kicks - Bajiquan also "closes the door" about 30%

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dA5-Q6wALTg

Korean mantis school

8,035 views Jun 9, 2006
Not all Koreans are doing point fighting
tkd!!

Last edited by Bob on Tue Feb 07, 2023 12:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Bob
Great Old One
 
Posts: 3725
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 4:28 am
Location: Akron, Ohio

Re: Chang Dongsheng's Yang Style Taijiquan

Postby wayne hansen on Tue Feb 07, 2023 12:07 pm

How old is Chang in the above clips
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
wayne hansen
Wuji
 
Posts: 5660
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:52 pm

Re: Chang Dongsheng's Yang Style Taijiquan

Postby Bob on Tue Feb 07, 2023 12:20 pm

Interesting clips:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldAmH1zA7jU

Tung Ying Chieh (Dong Jing Jie) performing in 1945. Dong was a student of Yang Cheng Fu and Fong Ha's first Taiji Sifu. I have trained with 2 people in this line. This clips presents the end of the first section of the Yang Long (Carry Tiger back to Mountain, Fist Under Elbow) all the way up to the end of the second section (Cross Hands).




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97kMU3WgmtE

Tung Ying Chiehs son. Compare the eclip with his father doing the same section of the form 15 years earlier.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gr6dhevbLJ0

Chang Dung Sheng performing Yang style Taiji




The description of the clip is from the originator of the clip and not me

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IresUbkMbro

A brief sample of a few of the Yang Style Taijiquan Applications that have passed thru the Tung (Dong) Family

Tung Ying-Chieh was a long time student of & top Disciple of Yang Chengfu
Tung also Trained "Small Frame" with Chengfu's brother Yang Shao-hou.

Traveled with & Taught class for Yang Chengfu,
Worked on development of a Fast Form with him
Collaborated on Chengfu's Application book:

太極拳使用法
Taijiquan Shiyongfa
(Application Methods of Taijiquan)

This is just a few of the Yang Style Applications that has been handed down thru Four generations of the Tungs.

Last edited by Bob on Tue Feb 07, 2023 12:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Bob
Great Old One
 
Posts: 3725
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 4:28 am
Location: Akron, Ohio

Re: Chang Dongsheng's Yang Style Taijiquan

Postby origami_itto on Tue Feb 07, 2023 2:13 pm

Bob wrote:Interesting clips:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldAmH1zA7jU

Tung Ying Chieh (Dong Jing Jie) performing in 1945. Dong was a student of Yang Cheng Fu and Fong Ha's first Taiji Sifu. I have trained with 2 people in this line. This clips presents the end of the first section of the Yang Long (Carry Tiger back to Mountain, Fist Under Elbow) all the way up to the end of the second section (Cross Hands).




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97kMU3WgmtE

Tung Ying Chiehs son. Compare the eclip with his father doing the same section of the form 15 years earlier.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gr6dhevbLJ0

Chang Dung Sheng performing Yang style Taiji




The description of the clip is from the originator of the clip and not me

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IresUbkMbro

A brief sample of a few of the Yang Style Taijiquan Applications that have passed thru the Tung (Dong) Family

Tung Ying-Chieh was a long time student of & top Disciple of Yang Chengfu
Tung also Trained "Small Frame" with Chengfu's brother Yang Shao-hou.

Traveled with & Taught class for Yang Chengfu,
Worked on development of a Fast Form with him
Collaborated on Chengfu's Application book:

太極拳使用法
Taijiquan Shiyongfa
(Application Methods of Taijiquan)

This is just a few of the Yang Style Applications that has been handed down thru Four generations of the Tungs.



I'm a huge fan of the Tung/Dong stuff. Currently my primary focus.
The form is the notes, the quan is the music
Atomic Taijiquan|FB|YT|IG|X|
User avatar
origami_itto
Wuji
 
Posts: 5031
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:11 pm
Location: Palm Bay, FL

Re: Chang Dongsheng's Yang Style Taijiquan

Postby origami_itto on Tue Feb 07, 2023 2:21 pm

Bob wrote:Wouldn't make that generalization - good mantis practitioners "close the door" to minimize getting kicked in the groin and good practitioners practice certain kicks to get around that door - keeping the door closed to 30% also is good set up for tripping and blocking incoming kicks - Bajiquan also "closes the door" about 30%

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dA5-Q6wALTg

Korean mantis school

8,035 views Jun 9, 2006
Not all Koreans are doing point fighting
tkd!!



It also minimizes vulnerability to that knee hyperextending front kick that can really ruin your day.

Point being that it's an important concern that is mostly overlooked except by a few "useless" martial arts specialties that are focused on self defense over sports. Bordering on forgotten knowledge imho. Cheng man ching knew it. How many of his students did? How many of theirs? How many "martial tai chi" reformers incorporate it into their systems.
The form is the notes, the quan is the music
Atomic Taijiquan|FB|YT|IG|X|
User avatar
origami_itto
Wuji
 
Posts: 5031
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:11 pm
Location: Palm Bay, FL

PreviousNext

Return to Video Links

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 16 guests