Chang Dongsheng's Yang Style Taijiquan

[wayne hansen]

We always turn the front foot in
I worked out from other clips Chang was 63 in the clips
Ten years younger than me
I would thought he would have better balance when on one leg than he does
This might be down to posture he adopts

[taiwandeutscher]

Turning in the front toes is done by all serious MAists, I have met in 30 yrs. in TW. Only the pure health enthusiasts don't know, everbody else does.

[origami_itto]

Turning in the front toes is done by all serious MAists, I have met in 30 yrs. in TW. Only the pure health enthusiasts don't know, everbody else does.

But not sports fighters. The main point here is that the rules and safety gear protect the groin for them. It provides a stronger base and protects the genitals but there is a slight impact to mobility.

Since the groin is protected, most fighters aren't dirty enough to go for that low leg kick and there is an agility cost, only an idiot would incorporate it into their sparring and training for MMA competition.

I haven't noticed it in pure Muay Thai or BJJ either.

Sure. We know it because we're training for the time where only our training is protecting us, in theory. But to the rest of the world that point is pointless at best and potentially harmful.

I mean if I am wrong I expect Marvin to produce a gif by close of business, but I don't think I am. Show me a sport fighter that turns in their toe.

[marvin8]

Turning in the front toes is done by all serious MAists, I have met in 30 yrs. in TW. Only the pure health enthusiasts don't know, everbody else does.

But not sports fighters. The main point here is that the rules and safety gear protect the groin for them. It provides a stronger base and protects the genitals but there is a slight impact to mobility.

Since the groin is protected, most fighters aren't dirty enough to go for that low leg kick and there is an agility cost, only an idiot would incorporate it into their sparring and training for MMA competition.

I haven't noticed it in pure Muay Thai or BJJ either.

Sure. We know it because we're training for the time where only our training is protecting us, in theory. But to the rest of the world that point is pointless at best and potentially harmful.

I mean if I am wrong I expect Marvin to produce a gif by close of business, but I don't think I am. Show me a sport fighter that turns in their toe.

Most professional fighters know about eye gouges, groin kicks and the street. Many come from TMA backgrounds. As Cejudo instructs if one is out of range (distance control), they can "not react to feints," point the toe in (see Cejudo gif) or out, keep their hands up or down, etc. Many defenses to an opponent raising their leg.

All this to say, raise the CMA bar instead of lowering it.

[origami_itto]

Turning in the front toes is done by all serious MAists, I have met in 30 yrs. in TW. Only the pure health enthusiasts don't know, everbody else does.

But not sports fighters. The main point here is that the rules and safety gear protect the groin for them. It provides a stronger base and protects the genitals but there is a slight impact to mobility.

Since the groin is protected, most fighters aren't dirty enough to go for that low leg kick and there is an agility cost, only an idiot would incorporate it into their sparring and training for MMA competition.

I haven't noticed it in pure Muay Thai or BJJ either.

Sure. We know it because we're training for the time where only our training is protecting us, in theory. But to the rest of the world that point is pointless at best and potentially harmful.

I mean if I am wrong I expect Marvin to produce a gif by close of business, but I don't think I am. Show me a sport fighter that turns in their toe.

Most professional fighters know about eye gouges, groin kicks and the street. Many come from TMA backgrounds. As Cejudo instructs if one is out of range (distance control), they can "not react to feints," point the toe in (see Cejudo gif) or out, keep their hands up or down, etc. Many defenses to an opponent raising their leg.

All this to say, raise the CMA bar instead of lowering it.

Of course they know about it, and knives, and guns, and boxers know about roundhouse kicks.

Just like Chang knew about front kicks.

But the demonstrated method did not demonstrate that front kicks were accounted for, if we're interpreting this as a usage frame for him.

And that's my point, when the rubber hits the road and you're training for a competition with money on the e line, there's no point investing a moment of time in anything that doesn't directly relate to the contest. As the contest becomes the focus, knowledge is dropped.

Same for a pure health focus, and don't even want to consider what's missing from a "martial only" focus.

What Cejudo appears to be demonstrating is slightly different. Hips are towards the oblique angle so the toes aren't closing the groin looks like a boxing stance by any other name.

[windwalker]

training practices

This book introduces the origin and development, content classification, characteristics and functions of Pingfa. It also introduces the basic principles, mechanical principles, basic movements and basic search methods of holding method.

In the basic skills exercises, targeted traditional real skills such as pile skills, hand skills, arm skills, waist skills, leg skills, falling skills, belt shaking, and smashing piles are introduced.

In the actual combat application technology of martial arts wrestling, modern Sanshou wrestling, Shaolin boxing holding method, Bajiquan holding method,
Baguazhang holding method, Taijiquan wrestling method, Wudang Guyi falling method, Emei wrestling method and military police boxing are introduced.

example


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcROjCUIUNA

[marvin8]

Just like Chang knew about front kicks.

But the demonstrated method did not demonstrate that front kicks were accounted for, if we're interpreting this as a usage frame for him.

And that's my point, when the rubber hits the road and you're training for a competition with money on the e line, there's no point investing a moment of time in anything that doesn't directly relate to the contest. As the contest becomes the focus, knowledge is dropped.

In open rules, these MAists are training for fights—spending time developing fight IQ and skills to defend attacks to all areas, including close to the groin. As you raise your leg to kick them, they are checking the kick, entering to sweep, throw, punch or submit you.

What Cejudo appears to be demonstrating is slightly different. Hips are towards the oblique angle so the toes aren't closing the groin looks like a boxing stance by any other name.

An absolute statement like "Always turn in the front toes" is false, unless it's qualified. When using yin, ting, na, hua, fa, zhan, nian, lian and sui (not specific to taiji), there are moments where the toes aren't turned in. For example:


https://youtu.be/dH1JGzqpTIo&t=38s

[wayne hansen]

Turn in don’t turn in it is not the most important thing
There are reasons beyond just protecting the groin

[Bao]

When using following steps (XY, BG, Hao and Sun tjq, etc), turning the foot slightly inwards is very important. It acts like a break for the whole leg so you can stabilise your stance while transitioning, stop your movement and change into another direction. Otherwise, when you move with speed, the momentum will continue forward.

If you really want to protect your balls, you should use oblique "women's stance" as common in Hung gar and similar styles. They use this stance when fighting to better control the muscles in the kua and groin area to actually suck up the testikels, up in the body.

[origami_itto]

Just like Chang knew about front kicks.

But the demonstrated method did not demonstrate that front kicks were accounted for, if we're interpreting this as a usage frame for him.

And that's my point, when the rubber hits the road and you're training for a competition with money on the e line, there's no point investing a moment of time in anything that doesn't directly relate to the contest. As the contest becomes the focus, knowledge is dropped.

In open rules, these MAists are training for fights—spending time developing fight IQ and skills to defend attacks to all areas, including close to the groin. As you raise your leg to kick them, they are checking the kick, entering to sweep, throw, punch or submit you.

What Cejudo appears to be demonstrating is slightly different. Hips are towards the oblique angle so the toes aren't closing the groin looks like a boxing stance by any other name.

An absolute statement like "Always turn in the front toes" is false, unless it's qualified. When using yin, ting, na, hua, fa, zhan, nian, lian and sui (not specific to taiji), there are moments where the toes aren't turned in. For example:


https://youtu.be/dH1JGzqpTIo&t=38s

If you look back you'll see I qualified it as "during sparring". (No edits)

Didn't say always, either, just during.
.
You make good points that I don't dispute.

[origami_itto]

Turn in don’t turn in it is not the most important thing
There are reasons beyond just protecting the groin

You had to know, saying that, I would press for more details.
Just as I know, asking for them, there is slight chance of you giving me a useful answer. But dammit, Pandora didn't save Hope for nothing!

What are some of those reasons? I've heard that we want both lower kwa open all the time, that we want one closed when the other is open? Does turning in the toe close the kwa?

[marvin8]

When using following steps (XY, BG, Hao and Sun tjq, etc), turning the foot slightly inwards is very important. It acts like a break for the whole leg so you can stabilise your stance while transitioning, stop your movement and change into another direction. Otherwise, when you move with speed, the momentum will continue forward.

If you really want to protect your balls, you should use oblique "women's stance" as common in Hung gar and similar styles. They use this stance when fighting to better control the muscles in the kua and groin area to actually suck up the testikels, up in the body.

Cejudo's follow step (not taiji) is used for stability, distance deception (yin), entering and explosive power. Ms Dong is pushing, then follow stepping. Cejudo is feinting to hide his follow step, luring a reaction from the opponent, intercepting, then stepping in with a takedown.

In both cases (Ms. Dong, Cejudo) if the opponent is rolling back, having the foot pointing forward is not as susceptible to a groin kick.

[marvin8]

Just like Chang knew about front kicks.

But the demonstrated method did not demonstrate that front kicks were accounted for, if we're interpreting this as a usage frame for him.

And that's my point, when the rubber hits the road and you're training for a competition with money on the e line, there's no point investing a moment of time in anything that doesn't directly relate to the contest. As the contest becomes the focus, knowledge is dropped.

In open rules, these MAists are training for fights—spending time developing fight IQ and skills to defend attacks to all areas, including close to the groin. As you raise your leg to kick them, they are checking the kick, entering to sweep, throw, punch or submit you.

What Cejudo appears to be demonstrating is slightly different. Hips are towards the oblique angle so the toes aren't closing the groin looks like a boxing stance by any other name.

An absolute statement like "Always turn in the front toes" is false, unless it's qualified. When using yin, ting, na, hua, fa, zhan, nian, lian and sui (not specific to taiji), there are moments where the toes aren't turned in. For example:


https://youtu.be/dH1JGzqpTIo&t=38s

If you look back you'll see I qualified it as "during sparring". (No edits)

Didn't say always, either, just during.
.
You make good points that I don't dispute.

I qualified it too. In the martial form, sparring and fighting, "there are moments where the toes aren't turned in." (It was someone else's statement I was referring to, not yours.)

Here Mizner points the toe forward in both the form and sparring.

Excerpt from "Timing, Placement and Power:"

Placement

This is referring to the footwork, angle of attack, distance and also the impact area. The training to develop this skill of placement is honed and refined in tai chi chuan within the arena of push hands practice. It is here within pushing hands that we can investigate and ingrain all the different body positions and their advantages and disadvantages....

When your placement is correct you naturally exploit the weakness in your opponent’s structure while capitalizing on the strength of your own. The application of Da or Fa will leave you in a perfect structure, neither confined nor over extended and the placement and angle of the body and arms should make you as safe as possible, whilst still being able to apply your technique on the opponent....

In the below video you can see a demonstration of timing, placement and power.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CbmpMs8ybBc

[Bao]

Cejudo's follow step (not taiji) is used for stability, distance deception (yin), entering and explosive power. Ms Dong is pushing, then follow stepping. Cejudo is feinting to hide his follow step, luring a reaction from the opponent, intercepting, then stepping in with a takedown.

In both cases (Ms. Dong, Cejudo) if the opponent is rolling back, having the foot pointing forward is not as susceptible to a groin kick.

Seems like a good explanation.