How internal practices were put into traditional MA

[Bob]

Interesting and challenging ideas about how the internal practices got integrated into the traditional martial arts (external)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vll6TssUxq4

In the first episode, I meet up with my friend John Eusebio @longfistmantis to visit the bookstore of Liu Kang Yi. Mr Liu's bookstore, Wuxue Shuguan has a huge collection of martial arts books, in both Chinese and English, and he has also spent decades collecting old and rare manuscripts. In this video he shares his insights on the development of martial arts from a military combat art, to an integrated system of both combat and health practice, as we see it today. He also shows us a copy of the Bubishi, the foundational manual of Okinawan Karate.

If you are in Taipei, make sure to drop in his store, at 49 Chongqing S Rd, Zhongzheng District. You can also check out his collection online at https://www.lionbooks.com.tw

To learn more visit http://www.monkeystealspeach.com

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[Appledog]

Hits the nail on the head imo, the practices are military arts which were mixed with taoist, buddhist and confucian ideas about enlightenment via daoyin exercises.

Perhaps by coincidence the domain of the two are exactly similar and fit together so well.

Now we see, why the intent of the human is so important. It is not weapons which kill people, it is people using weapons which kill people.

[HotSoup]

He’s mentioning one thing that I’ve been curious about for some time now. Namely, that the original Yijinjing treatises only had theory and no specific movements. All versions of YJJ I’ve seen (something around eight of them, I think) were movement-centered and had no theory chapter whatsoever. I wonder if anyone actually saw any version that was focused on the theory specifically?

[robert]

Interesting and challenging ideas about how the internal practices got integrated into the traditional martial arts (external)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vll6TssUxq4

In the first episode, I meet up with my friend John Eusebio @longfistmantis to visit the bookstore of Liu Kang Yi. Mr Liu's bookstore, Wuxue Shuguan has a huge collection of martial arts books, in both Chinese and English, and he has also spent decades collecting old and rare manuscripts. In this video he shares his insights on the development of martial arts from a military combat art, to an integrated system of both combat and health practice, as we see it today. He also shows us a copy of the Bubishi, the foundational manual of Okinawan Karate.

If you are in Taipei, make sure to drop in his store, at 49 Chongqing S Rd, Zhongzheng District. You can also check out his collection online at https://www.lionbooks.com.tw

I was in Taipei last month, you're too late or I was too early. Next time I'm there I'll stop in.

[Bao]

That external arts came first and internal practice was somehow put into, or combined with, external practice, is a common view. Most people believe this, but I would say that this is a mistake. This belief is IMHO way too much simplified and shows a limited understanding of Chinese culture.

He’s mentioning one thing that I’ve been curious about for some time now. Namely, that the original Yijinjing treatises only had theory and no specific movements.

Well... The YJJ appeared in text much earlier than there is proof of actual existence.

You can read all about the historical sources here, from my late teacher. Some people might think a little bit dry and old-ish maybe, but you won't find any more recent research that does as good explaining the facts and fiction around the Yijinjing.

Part one:
https://books.google.se/books?id=AtoDAA ... &q&f=false

Part Two:
https://books.google.se/books?id=8tkDAA ... &q&f=false

Part three:
https://books.google.se/books?id=YM4DAA ... &q&f=false

part four:
https://books.google.se/books?id=X84DAA ... &q&f=false

Bleicher's comment on above research:
https://books.google.se/books?id=W84DAA ... &q&f=false

[Bob]

I agree that it is far too simplistic and linear to think that the integration of the internal with the external came about solely through the aging of elderly former external martial artists - my speculation is that the diffusion and adoption of internal practices into external came in through various practices, observations on the importance of breath control and relaxation functionally improving the efficiency/potential power of the external martial art - I think it is a very complex development not amenable to simplistic explanations.

You can take something like the da qiang exercises that were common to a lot of martial arts and often driven by external shoulder muscle strength movements and then maybe you see an improvement if it is linked to breath control and maybe you slow it down and maybe you do some zhan zhuang static postures with the weapon - you then can see better alignment, control, power etc.. And potentially the da qiang exercises and movements are developed and mapped onto open hand practices - simply speculation based on my bajiquan experiences and some xing yi da qiang exercises I was taught.

Here are a couple of examples if you try imagine them with a more internal flavor:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7kMzba9ocQ

1,412 views Jun 4, 2011
Monday May 30,2PM -- Master Wang Zhihai
seminar & workshop, free admission
16952 Millikan Ave. Irvine, CA 92606



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFt1xNlVCGk

5,119 views Jun 4, 2011
Monday May 30,2PM -- Master Wang Zhihai

[Bob]

Here is part 2 of the Taiwan Masters documentary:

At the end of the this you will see some slowed down da qiang work along with the movements with a da qiang for developing full body development and alignment (I am very familiar with these exercises)

Done by Monkey steals Peach

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LB3vyMe4gj0

9,384 views Mar 18, 2023
In part 2, I meet up with my friend Ghyslain Kuehn (check out his own channel @wushuquestofficial ) and head to the Wu Tan headquarters to meet Lin Zong Xi and learn about the Baja Quan and Pigua Zhang of Liu Yun Qiao. We also try snake soup.

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[Trip]

I agree that it is far too simplistic and linear to think that the integration of the internal with the external came about solely through the aging of elderly former external martial artists - my speculation is that the diffusion and adoption of internal practices into external came in through various practices, observations on the importance of breath control and relaxation functionally improving the efficiency/potential power of the external martial art - I think it is a very complex development not amenable to simplistic explanations.

I think you, Bob, & Bao &
Kang Yi, the Book store owner,
all make solid observations.

Anyway, thought I'd enter another view in the conversation you all are having.
It's an excerpt from Daoism and Martial arts

I look at one phase of the interaction between Asian Martial arts and Chinese thought, with a reading of the Zhuangzi 莊子 and the Daodejing 道德經 from a martial arts perspective.

I do not claim that the authors knew about martial arts.

It was not Daoist masters who took up martial arts,
but martial arts masters who, at a specific time,
turned to Daoism to explain the significance of their art.

[Trip]

I really enjoy Will's enthusiasm for Arts he covers.

--Will POINTS AT A PICTURE IN A BOOK

Will:
If you look at these old Moves,
they are the same as Modern combative
isn't this just a single leg takedown?

Kang Yi:
Yes, all the same!

Will:
(Pointing)
See this just a classical single leg! right?

Kang Yi:
If you take away the cultural elements,
there is no difference.
It's essentially the same in all martial arts