Structural mechanics of Taiji. Why taichi don't use strength

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Structural mechanics of Taiji. Why taichi don't use strength

Postby marvin8 on Sun Mar 26, 2023 12:20 pm

Taichi Laboratory, Taichi In Science
Mar 10, 2023

There is a strong power never by discovered inside of your body.
You just don't know how to use it. You can call it source of Kongfu. Taichi is a way to learn how to use this extraordinary power. The structural power is very powerful. But it also stupid without quick response and elasticity. Taichi provide a way to enhance this original body structure for fighting. If you use structural power with elasticity. you can generate extraordinary power just by touch your enemy. Like the video above. You can classify the body structural power in three types. First, the original one , power it generate in static way without moving body, like a chair. Second, a solid ball, you can use the power during movements without losing the structural power. Third, the last one, ultimate one, use your body like a ball with strongness of bamboo, anything touch the swinging bamboo will be hurt by vibrating power. Taichi is the way to teach you how to use the body structural power like a moving ball but without having any ball in your hand. We keep the strongness of body structural power but add more elasticity. You need to operate your back muscle in more delicate way. With strong and elastic muscle around the joint. You can have the ability to change the direction of enemy's power at the moment of touch. then you can attack your enemy like counter punch.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5QnsPZ4GyWk
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Re: Structural mechanics of Taiji. Why taichi don't use strength

Postby Bao on Tue Mar 28, 2023 6:31 am

You need to operate your back muscle in more delicate way.


Well, this explanation is one slice of the pie.

The translation though is only a part of what he says, or a summary. He speaks a lot about how you need to be relaxed in order to be able to express the strength from the back. He certainly makes good arguments for his case.

In all IMA, jin comes from the back. It's the back that carries, stores and releases the jin. Actually, the front of the body is quite weak. Anyone who knows how to punch hard, external or internal practitioner, knows how to incorporate the back in one way or another. In IMA, we use the back in a more "delicate way".

This is why I feel a bit puzzled by some Chen Tai Chi schools, they overemphasis the Dantian while having very little or no method to really activate the back. Actually, by putting all of their emphasis mainly on the dantian, they use a simplified and crude type of body mechanics. Which makes it weird to see Yang and other tai chi stylists trying to copying Chen style's focus on the Dantian, falling in the same trap.
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Re: Structural mechanics of Taiji. Why taichi don't use strength

Postby Appledog on Thu Mar 30, 2023 12:00 pm

Bao wrote:This is why I feel a bit puzzled by some Chen Tai Chi schools, they overemphasis the Dantian while having very little or no method to really activate the back. Actually, by putting all of their emphasis mainly on the dantian, they use a simplified and crude type of body mechanics. Which makes it weird to see Yang and other tai chi stylists trying to copying Chen style's focus on the Dantian, falling in the same trap.


Well doesn't this imply Chen's method doesn't produce the "tai chi result"? That can't be what you mean. I could also say activating the back is wrong-- that rather, you should activate the zhong qi channels and the back will go along for the ride -- that the qi sticking to the back is instead a beginner's postural correction akin to keeping the head suspended as if from above.

Tai chi sure is weird tho. The more I do it the more i am convinced that actually, tai chi uses strength. I think the reason why people believe it doesn't use strength is because you are not using it the way you use normal strength, from your intention. So you don't even know what you are doing. I suspect that people started trying to explain it and that's what ruined it :)
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Re: Structural mechanics of Taiji. Why taichi don't use strength

Postby Bao on Thu Mar 30, 2023 2:12 pm

Appledog wrote:Well doesn't this imply Chen's method doesn't produce the "tai chi result"? That can't be what you mean.


98% of Tai Chi is simplified and shallow regardless style. Chen is not better or more martial than any other style. How much Tai Chi it is depends on how well you understand Tai Chi principles. It's the same for all styles, though different practitioners from different styles make different mistakes.

I could also say activating the back is wrong-- that rather, you should activate the zhong qi channels and the back will go along for the ride -- that the qi sticking to the back is instead a beginner's postural correction akin to keeping the head suspended as if from above.


I could name many advanced Tai Chi teachers who teach how to draw the strength from the spine in different ways, by activating the lower ribs, the scapula, and by gentle spinal movements. The same principles can be found in other IMA as well, but in Tai Chi beginners are usually taught to stand straight and first learn to understand balance and centerline.

Tai chi sure is weird tho. The more I do it the more i am convinced that actually, tai chi uses strength. I think the reason why people believe it doesn't use strength is because you are not using it the way you use normal strength, from your intention. So you don't even know what you are doing. I suspect that people started trying to explain it and that's what ruined it :)


Oh, I am perfectly convinced that Tai Chi doesn't rely on what people call "using strength". I am not sure though if I completely follow you.
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Re: Structural mechanics of Taiji. Why taichi don't use strength

Postby windwalker on Sun Apr 02, 2023 6:45 pm

Bao wrote:

98% of Tai Chi is simplified and shallow regardless style.

Chen is not better or more martial than any other style. How much Tai Chi it is depends on how well you understand Tai Chi principles.
It's the same for all styles, though different practitioners from different styles make different mistakes..


Always find statement's like these interesting..

You practice taiji, what percentage is it in,,,the 98% or the 2%. :-\

With out seeing any of it, how would one judge it, :-\
Last edited by windwalker on Sun Apr 02, 2023 6:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Structural mechanics of Taiji. Why taichi don't use strength

Postby RobP3 on Mon Apr 03, 2023 1:18 am

Everyone uses "strength" it's a total fantasy to believe otherwise. Yang family training includes iron staff, metal ball, dynamic push hands, etc. It's how strength is developed and applied that is the issue. Unless you are a person able to move others with the "power of your mind" as a beam of force, of course.
Last edited by RobP3 on Mon Apr 03, 2023 1:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Structural mechanics of Taiji. Why taichi don't use strength

Postby Appledog on Mon Apr 03, 2023 1:19 am

windwalker wrote:
Bao wrote:
98% of Tai Chi is simplified and shallow regardless style.

Chen is not better or more martial than any other style. How much Tai Chi it is depends on how well you understand Tai Chi principles.
It's the same for all styles, though different practitioners from different styles make different mistakes..


Always find statement's like these interesting..

You practice taiji, what percentage is it in,,,the 98% or the 2%. :-\

With out seeing any of it, how would one judge it, :-\


Just look at it. For example, when did song become fang song? A great deal has been hidden from the casual performer. Bao is right, 98% of tai chi as it is done today is basically useless.
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Re: Structural mechanics of Taiji. Why taichi don't use strength

Postby windwalker on Mon Apr 03, 2023 2:28 am

Appledog wrote:
Just look at it. For example, when did song become fang song?
A great deal has been hidden from the casual performer.

Bao is right, 98% of tai chi as it is done today is basically useless.



;D said by those never posting any of their own work....

words of the 2%

always interesting :)
Last edited by windwalker on Mon Apr 03, 2023 2:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Structural mechanics of Taiji. Why taichi don't use strength

Postby Appledog on Mon Apr 03, 2023 8:03 am

windwalker wrote:
Appledog wrote:
Just look at it. For example, when did song become fang song?
A great deal has been hidden from the casual performer.

Bao is right, 98% of tai chi as it is done today is basically useless.



;D said by those never posting any of their own work....

words of the 2%

always interesting :)


That isn't very fair to Bao, I am sure he has posted some of his own work in the past.
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Re: Structural mechanics of Taiji. Why taichi don't use strength

Postby origami_itto on Mon Apr 03, 2023 8:18 am

Could someone do me a favor and define strength in this context?

Appledog, what does "strength" mean to you here?
Marvin, what is "strength"?
Bao, what is "strength"?

We might just be working with different ideas of what we are talking about. Could we spend a second clearing that up for the sake of discussion?
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Re: Structural mechanics of Taiji. Why taichi don't use strength

Postby origami_itto on Mon Apr 03, 2023 8:18 am

Could someone do me a favor and define strength in this context?

Appledog, what does "strength" mean to you here?
Marvin, what is "strength"?
Bao, what is "strength"?

We might just be working with different ideas of what we are talking about. Could we spend a second clearing that up for the sake of discussion?
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Re: Structural mechanics of Taiji. Why taichi don't use strength

Postby windwalker on Mon Apr 03, 2023 8:30 am

Appledog wrote:
windwalker wrote:
Appledog wrote:
Just look at it. For example, when did song become fang song?
A great deal has been hidden from the casual performer.

Bao is right, 98% of tai chi as it is done today is basically useless.



;D said by those never posting any of their own work....

words of the 2%

always interesting :)


That isn't very fair to Bao, I am sure he has posted some of his own work in the past.


Fair ;D you feel posting or commenting on others work suggesting its useless , while posting none of your own is fair
what about the 98% we want to know what the standard is that we're being held to.. ;D


feel free to post a link of Bao's work...

the post was in answer to you...

Have seen some of your "students" ? work,,,none of yours...correct me if I'm wrong.

If someone is claiming 98% of taiji out there is BS with out posting any of their own work kinda says a lot ...
writing doesn't count.. ;D


Look at what people do, related to what they feel they do it for...gaining an understanding of their viewpoints
regardless of my own views.
Last edited by windwalker on Mon Apr 03, 2023 12:04 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Structural mechanics of Taiji. Why taichi don't use strength

Postby windwalker on Mon Apr 03, 2023 8:54 am

"Could someone do me a favor and define strength in this context?"

In groups I've worked with, the measure used is that one can only feel their own strength..ie resistance
The central idea not to feel any resistance, to seek , maintain central equilibrium
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Re: Structural mechanics of Taiji. Why taichi don't use strength

Postby windwalker on Mon Apr 03, 2023 9:49 am

RobP3 wrote:Everyone uses "strength" it's a total fantasy to believe otherwise. Yang family training includes iron staff, metal ball, dynamic push hands, etc. It's how strength is developed and applied that is the issue. Unless you are a person able to move others with the "power of your mind" as a beam of force, of course.



historically there were other methods not very public

"At first, M Yao was reluctant to talk about this kind of thing, but eventually, seeing that Ao wasn’t going to drop it, sighed and raised his hand. Bear in mind that Ao and M Yao were separated by a dining table at this point. M Yao lifted his hand and made a very small fa li motion towards Ao’s face. Ao felt as if a large mass of paper had hit his forehead, it scared him witless. "

"Wu Tunan's recounting that Yang Luchan frightened Duan Wang Zaiyi to turn over and fall off the horse."

Anecdotal accounting of historical events, reflecting some of the practices that continue to this day...


The poster is suggesting a methodology that is not the case...

It is based on a very different understanding of how the human body is said to work...

not really the topic of the thread but might help to explain very different view points...
as to why people have such different views reflections of their teachers views held for reasons of their own.

" M Yao was always reluctant to talk about this kind of thing, even in his books he denied it existed in Yiquan.
His intent was not to lead Yiquan students astray.
Actually, the practice of Yiquan can develop this ability. M Yao told me about it in 1978. That year, in order to study Yiquan with M Yao,
I took sick leave dozens of times. I gave up a lot of other things to practice Yiquan."
Last edited by windwalker on Mon Apr 03, 2023 12:06 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Structural mechanics of Taiji. Why taichi don't use strength

Postby Bhassler on Mon Apr 03, 2023 9:56 am

In general terms, "strength" refers to the amount of force that can be generated.
"Power" is work divided by time. So someone who is very skilled or efficient can have a lot of power, while not necessarily needing to use a lot of strength.
What WW is talking about might better be referred to as "effort", or perceived effort, which can a different thing entirely than strength or power.
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