Resistance

[liokault]

I personally liked the bit at 5m 7s where your escape put you in a choke hold that your “opponent” had to quickly let go before you looked stupid.

Was he resisting wrong?

What are you on about?

I’m on about the bit at 5m 7seconds where you put yourself into a really nice choke.

If you were in a real martial art class you would be in trouble, but your not, your in a systems class.

[RobP3]

I personally liked the bit at 5m 7s where your escape put you in a choke hold that your “opponent” had to quickly let go before you looked stupid.

Was he resisting wrong?

What are you on about?

I’m on about the bit at 5m 7seconds where you put yourself into a really nice choke.

If you were in a real martial art class you would be in trouble, but your not, your in a systems class.

Lol, you mean the bit where I'm going slow and pause to explain what I'm doing? Are you really that desperate? You think you could choke me from that position, if I'm actually moving? I don't remember you managing last time we met. Didn't you hurt your knee then? Is that what this is, you are still sore about it? Aww, bless.

[liokault]

Lol, you mean the bit where I'm going slow and pause to explain what I'm doing? Are you really that desperate? You think you could choke me from that position, if I'm actually moving? I don't remember you managing last time we met. Didn't you hurt your knee then? Is that what this is, you are still sore about it? Aww, bless.

Do I think I could choke you if I’m behind you with crossed hands, either side of your neck, tightening down on your clothing around your neck?

Yes, super easy, barely an inconvenience.

I’m frankly amazed you can’t see this as an issue, it’s kind of a fundamental flaw I look forwards to your headbut the knuckle defence to a face punch and the jumping out of a window defence to a slight insult

Also, I genuinely have no recall of meeting you, I’m sure I would remember as my kids are big Shrek fans.

[RobP3]

Lol, you mean the bit where I'm going slow and pause to explain what I'm doing? Are you really that desperate? You think you could choke me from that position, if I'm actually moving? I don't remember you managing last time we met. Didn't you hurt your knee then? Is that what this is, you are still sore about it? Aww, bless.

Do I think I could choke you if I’m behind you with crossed hands, either side of your neck, tightening down on your clothing around your neck?

Yes, super easy, barely an inconvenience.

I’m frankly amazed you can’t see this as an issue, it’s kind of a fundamental flaw I look forwards to your headbut the knuckle defence to a face punch and the jumping out of a window defence to a slight insult

Also, I genuinely have no recall of meeting you, I’m sure I would remember as my kids are big Shrek fans.

Well, maybe if I was standing still and chatting to a camera and didn't respond at all. Outside of that - no. I'm frankly amazed that a supposed "martial artist" such as yourself can't differentiate between someone doing something in real time and someone explaining something as they do it.

Funny, you have mentioned our meeting before on here. A Northampton Throwdown, some years back. I mainly remember you because your knee went during some fairly soft push hands. Funny how you weren't so insulting face to face.

[marvin8]

At 1:22,

I prefer to think of things as being active. So I'm working against an active partner or person… but as you go up that cooperation can decrease it doesn't necessarily mean that the person is just offering resistance because that implies to me like just tension a sort of static tension but if the person is responding to what I'm doing then that's a much better way to test something but not a technique.

Respectfully, I questioned it too. What prevents the "resistant" attacker from "responding" by moving/turning while you level change? It seems to disregard the principle for every action there is a reaction.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuO70Mn5u3U&t=4m53s

Your attacker can respond by...
• snapping down
• turning
• pushing
• pulling
• kneeing
• headbutting
• punching
• choking...

Concepts & principles
• protect from headbutt
• protect from strikes
• off balance/extend attacker
• pin/trap arms
• open and close into weak angles
• use opponent’s force against themselves
• use whole body
• use leverage...

Systema example using cross and lever principles. " I can use the cross principle in this situation and give burden in a 45 degree from his balance point. "

Transition CRT
Oct 29, 2017

In this video we explain the basic principles of how to defend yourself against a frontal throat grab.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDBlDQScKeA

[RobP3]

"Respectfully, I questioned it too. What prevents the "resistant" attacker from "responding" by moving/turning while you level change? It seems to disregard the principle for every action there is a reaction."

Nothing when I'm demonstrating and talking about what I'm doing. But when applied in real time, speed, timing, hitting him as I move, etc. At speed, what time doe he have to respond, if he doesn't know what I am going to do? And if he does, I respond with him.
I'm not applying a "he does, I do" technique, I'm explaining a principle of not working directly against tension. As in the link you shared, of course you can hit, grab, etc in any situation, but they are showing "How to Vs". I'm talking about movement principles in general.

[windwalker]

In general, always found the Systema work quite interesting with "RobP3"
being a very solid example of the method, and his teachers work.

One would hope those viewing any type of "demo" understand the differences between "teaching" "training" "demoing" and competitive or live usage
out side of the mythical "resisting partner" paradigm that is often used to discount what is shown or explained.


@ RobP3, We may at times have different thoughts about how things work or what is viewed.
Always liked the method, feeling it was quite similar to the taiji as used and taught by my teacher
Hope you continue to share and explain your work...always interesting.

kind regards

[marvin8]

Respectfully, I questioned it too. What prevents the "resistant" attacker from "responding" by moving/turning while you level change? It seems to disregard the principle for every action there is a reaction.

Nothing when I'm demonstrating and talking about what I'm doing. But when applied in real time, speed, timing, hitting him as I move, etc. At speed, what time doe he have to respond, if he doesn't know what I am going to do? And if he does, I respond with him.

Right. You are not demonstrating what you're talking about "working around resistance," whether in real time or not. Your attacker only shows "static tension." He freezes his arms as you bend over then step to the side. He is not "responding to what you are doing," as you explain is part of your definition of "resistance..."

Principle of Action and Reaction — For every action, there is a reaction. Every time you take a step, the attacker gets to take a step. You want your technical ability to stand alone, not relying on being faster or physically stronger than your opponent. For example, you don’t want to rely on doing five actions to the attacker’s one action. (Knowledge, understanding and skill helps in working within this principle.)

I'm not applying a "he does, I do" technique, I'm explaining a principle of not working directly against tension. As in the link you shared, of course you can hit, grab, etc in any situation, but they are showing "How to Vs". I'm talking about movement principles in general.

No. The Systema instructor is talking about and demoing principles. At 3:24 in one movement, he pins the attacker's arms, steps back, unbalances the opponent (using cross & lever principles), then takes him down.

Systema example using cross and lever principles. " I can use the cross principle in this situation and give burden in a 45 degree from his balance point. "

Transition CRT
Oct 29, 2017

In this video we explain the basic principles of how to defend yourself against a frontal throat grab.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDBlDQScKeA

[RobP3]

Right. You are not demonstrating what you're talking about "working around resistance," whether in real time or not. Your attacker only shows "static tension." He freezes his arms as you bend over then step to the side. He is not "responding to what you are doing," as you explain is part of your definition of "resistance..."

1.30 "depending on what stage you are wroking at. First stage, partners are relaxed and not so responsive."
So that's where we start, stage one. I am also putting this into the context of the "technique testing" I mention. Got to start somewhere.
Then I talk through the idea of working around resistance as I slowly show it. Stage One. Then we move on.

Principle of Action and Reaction — For every action, there is a reaction. Every time you take a step, the attacker gets to take a step. You want your technical ability to stand alone, not relying on being faster or physically stronger than your opponent. For example, you don’t want to rely on doing five actions to the attacker’s one action. (Knowledge, understanding and skill helps in working within this principle.)

Right, which is why I also mentioned timing. Fill the gaps in the opponent's movement, cut down on his response time, etc. Why would I give him a chance to step?
That means good attribute training. Best technique in the world is useless if your timing is off. So, Stage Two we start working with movement 6.56.

Then, at 7.50 "So of course you need to start training that in different ways, get into your sparring and testing phases." See earlier video on sparring for how we approach that

No. The Systema instructor is talking about and demoing principles. At 3:24 in one movement, he pins the attacker's arms, steps back, unbalances the opponent (using cross & lever principles), then takes him down.

Yep, and that's fine, all good. But his clip is called "Systema: How to defend against frontal choke?" and mine isn't. And isn't he working the same way at first, his partner is not responding, as we are obviously in "explanation mode?" I don't understand why this seems so hard to grasp for some, isn't this how we learn anything? Or are people randomly attacking their instructor mid-instruction?

cheers

[marvin8]

Right. You are not demonstrating what you're talking about "working around resistance," whether in real time or not. Your attacker only shows "static tension." He freezes his arms as you bend over then step to the side. He is not "responding to what you are doing," as you explain is part of your definition of "resistance..."

1.30 "depending on what stage you are wroking at. First stage, partners are relaxed and not so responsive."
So that's where we start, stage one. I am also putting this into the context of the "technique testing" I mention. Got to start somewhere.
Then I talk through the idea of working around resistance as I slowly show it. Stage One. Then we move on.

At 1.30, contact is not made, the opponents are resisting/moving which is not only fine but logical. I wasn't referencing that section.

My replies were in regards to liokault's comments about 5:07 and my gif starting at 4:53. There contact is already made and the opponent freezes.

Principle of Action and Reaction — For every action, there is a reaction. Every time you take a step, the attacker gets to take a step. You want your technical ability to stand alone, not relying on being faster or physically stronger than your opponent. For example, you don’t want to rely on doing five actions to the attacker’s one action. (Knowledge, understanding and skill helps in working within this principle.)

Right, which is why I also mentioned timing. Fill the gaps in the opponent's movement, cut down on his response time, etc. Why would I give him a chance to step?
That means good attribute training. Best technique in the world is useless if your timing is off.

So, Stage Two we start working with movement 6.56.

You bend over, step to the side and circle to the back, while your opponent is balanced. This is not good timing, because an "active" opponent may do what liokault mentioned and the things I listed under "Your attacker can respond by..."

No. The Systema instructor is talking about and demoing principles. At 3:24 in one movement, he pins the attacker's arms, steps back, unbalances the opponent (using cross & lever principles), then takes him down.

Yep, and that's fine, all good. But his clip is called "Systema: How to defend against frontal choke?" and mine isn't. And isn't he working the same way at first, his partner is not responding, as we are obviously in "explanation mode?" I don't understand why this seems so hard to grasp for some, isn't this how we learn anything? Or are people randomly attacking their instructor mid-instruction?

cheers

I agree that his demo is fine. I mentioned it doesn't matter "whether [it's] in real time or not."

It's a demo video of defending against a two hand grab where contact is already made. The Systema instructor addresses what an "attacker can respond" with by pinning/trapping and taking the opponent's balance in one movement—simultaneous defense and offense.

xie xie

[RobP3]

At 1.30, contact is not made, the opponents are resisting/moving which is not only fine but logical. I wasn't referencing that section.
My replies were in regards to liokault's comments about 5:07 and my gif starting at 4:53. There contact is already made and the opponent freezes.

So again, you mean the bit where I'm pausing and talking to the camera?

You bend over, step to the side and circle to the back, while your opponent is balanced. This is not good timing, because an "active" opponent may do what liokault mentioned and the things I listed under "Your attacker can respond by..."

With respect, you still seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that I am demonstrating a technique here. Again, I am talking about movement. The clip is not titled "How to Escape a Front Grab" I'm just using that as a basic set up to explore the idea of working around tension. I'm not sure how clearer I can make it. I do mention that, in use, I can hit, etc as I go through, which would seem to take care of most issues. But that's another subject, perhaps I'll cover that on the next vlog.

I agree that his demo is fine. I mentioned it doesn't matter "whether [it's] in real time or not."

But you seem to imply it does matter in relation to my clip?

It's a demo video of defending against a two hand grab where contact is already made. The Systema instructor addresses what an "attacker can respond" with by pinning/trapping and taking the opponent's balance in one movement—simultaneous defense and offense.

Again, great, he is showing ways to deal with a front grab.

cheers

[marvin8]

At 1.30, contact is not made, the opponents are resisting/moving which is not only fine but logical. I wasn't referencing that section.
My replies were in regards to liokault's comments about 5:07 and my gif starting at 4:53. There contact is already made and the opponent freezes.

So again, you mean the bit where I'm pausing and talking to the camera?

No. I mean my gif from both 4:53 – 4:55 and 5:29 – 5:35. Starting at 5:29, you do not "pause and talk to the camera." Anyways, "pausing and talking to the camera" is irrelevant. It's what you and the attacker do before that.

You bend over, step to the side and circle to the back, while your opponent is balanced. This is not good timing, because an "active" opponent may do what liokault mentioned and the things I listed under "Your attacker can respond by..."

With respect, you still seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that I am demonstrating a technique here. Again, I am talking about movement. The clip is not titled "How to Escape a Front Grab" I'm just using that as a basic set up to explore the idea of working around tension. I'm not sure how clearer I can make it. I do mention that, in use, I can hit, etc as I go through, which would seem to take care of most issues. But that's another subject, perhaps I'll cover that on the next vlog.

No, I am not. I am talking about yours' and the attacker's movement from both 4:53 – 4:55 and 5:29 – 5:35.

I agree that his demo is fine. I mentioned it doesn't matter "whether [it's] in real time or not."

But you seem to imply it does matter in relation to my clip?

No, I did not imply that. I said that in relation to your clip:

Nothing when I'm demonstrating and talking about what I'm doing. But when applied in real time, speed, timing, hitting him as I move, etc. At speed, what time doe he have to respond, if he doesn't know what I am going to do? And if he does, I respond with him.

Right. You are not demonstrating what you're talking about "working around resistance," whether in real time or not.

It's a demo video of defending against a two hand grab where contact is already made. The Systema instructor addresses what an "attacker can respond" with by pinning/trapping and taking the opponent's balance in one movement—simultaneous defense and offense.

Again, great, he is showing ways to deal with a front grab.

cheers

No. Again,

No. The Systema instructor is talking about and demoing principles. At 3:24 in one movement, he pins the attacker's arms, steps back, unbalances the opponent (using cross & lever principles), then takes him down.

Systema example using cross and lever principles. " I can use the cross principle in this situation and give burden in a 45 degree from his balance point. "

Transition CRT
Oct 29, 2017

In this video we explain the basic principles of how to defend yourself against a frontal throat grab.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDBlDQScKeA

[RobP3]

"No. I mean my gif from both 4:53 – 4:55 and 5:29 – 5:35. Starting at 5:29, you do not "pause and talk to the camera." Anyways, "pausing and talking to the camera" is irrelevant. It's what you and the attacker do before that."

4.53 I'm talking to the cameras as I do the movement, I even step towards the camera
5.29 I'm talking to the camera as I do the movement

In both cases I'm working slow, for the reasons described before - the universal method of showing something for the first time to explain it. Could Jay do any or some of the things on your list? Probably. At this stage, though, why would he?

Had some interesting PM's on this, thanks chaps.

[Bhassler]

@RobP3
I'm no expert, but I think you should have worn cammo pants and done a somersault, so the internet would know you were doing Systema.

Other than that, I liked the "sparring" video. I think of that kind of asymmetrical situational work as scenario training, and sparring as symetrical/technical work, but it's good stuff, regardless of what you call it. Along with intelligent use of drills, I think that's one of the best parts of Systema. And also cammo pants.

[GrahamB]

Isn't this original clip by Rob simply pointing out that you don't want to work directly against resistance, but rather find a way to work around it, because it's usually the best way to go?

It's not rocket science, but I must be missing something, because a lot of people seem to have some sort of problem with that.