Kurt Wong Chen Taijiquan Du Ye Ze

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Kurt Wong Chen Taijiquan Du Ye Ze

Postby Bob on Thu May 18, 2023 5:40 am

Many may disagree but my point is not to argue but simply illustrate a way to play Chen Taiji with a "Yang" flavor - It's just one of the ways to play it. Not a purist but we have also used this tempo and flavor with the Liu Yunqiao's short forms for initially training - stance work in motion

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UOZMV_5lwE



Here are the shorts:

https://youtube.com/shorts/imKPyK4ggx0?feature=share

https://youtube.com/shorts/DVcw63Q1sPM?feature=share

https://youtube.com/shorts/6tP5FMdgg8o?feature=share

https://youtube.com/shorts/TT74xOScgcg?feature=share

https://youtube.com/shorts/eXyd8Lu6Sv8?feature=share

https://youtube.com/shorts/Xh69qa-EEdE?feature=share
Last edited by Bob on Thu May 18, 2023 5:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Kurt Wong Chen Taijiquan Du Ye Ze

Postby Bob on Thu May 18, 2023 5:54 am

Just a little more flavor of Kurt Wong's approach - met him 20 years ago or so and I always liked him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySH3Wj6EKbg

2007 - Lan Men Dao in Norway
Master Kurt Wong Kung Fu

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Re: Kurt Wong Chen Taijiquan Du Ye Ze

Postby windwalker on Thu May 18, 2023 7:54 am

Practicing with my teacher and his group in Beijing some had asked if I knew Chen taiji

Never having learned Chen, frankly not my cup of tea for many reasons....replied no..

Mention this, depending on how the practice is done ie flavor,,,some things may not develop as expected...
In my case would be a couple of more yrs in understanding this. More in yrs in correcting the misunderstanding :P

interesting clips btw. :)
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Re: Kurt Wong Chen Taijiquan Du Ye Ze

Postby yeniseri on Fri May 19, 2023 12:07 pm

Intuitively, I sense that the concept of public teaching, standardization and pedagogical deconstruction separated the pre 1950s and post 1950s methodology of
passing on taijiquan until this present day. I see in enough playing of taijiquan of the pre 1950s a more direct path as to how Yang Luchan"copied" chen family system and morphed it into
what is called taui chi today. Post 1950s tai chi play is more 'restrictive' when I compare it to pre 1950s playing of Yang form and even Chen because even Du Ye Ze's play seems more reflective
of my own limited understanding of Chen style. Chen Quanzhong! even relates this in a subtle way since he studied with a few of the 16th, 17th and 18th generation teachers and how X'ian was
able to carry forth that tradition while acknowledging New Style dynamics within the current realm since it has been made mandatory in some competition circles
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Re: Kurt Wong Chen Taijiquan Du Ye Ze

Postby windwalker on Fri May 19, 2023 12:26 pm

Might be better to show clips of either yourself or others illustrating some of the points..mentioned
Last edited by windwalker on Fri May 19, 2023 12:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Kurt Wong Chen Taijiquan Du Ye Ze

Postby wayne hansen on Fri May 19, 2023 1:31 pm

Yeniseri how old are you to have seen pre 1950 ,s stuff or are you just talking about on film
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Re: Kurt Wong Chen Taijiquan Du Ye Ze

Postby yeniseri on Tue May 23, 2023 8:25 am

When I trained with Prof Hou Chi Kwang and Lu Hungping, their external representation of taijiquan was different from what I know today as the frame of Yang Chengfu.
Even between the 2 teachers, their 'pattern' from what I 'perceived' and understood, was more of an obvious "neigong" quality and external expression noted that element.

It may also be an age elemet since I met them when they were in their "senior years". I am over 65 years! I have met many teachers (not recently ???) from Chicago, Montreal,
and Toronto who trained with teachers of yore, and I incorporated, picked up, and "stole' aspects of patterns of movement from them and it seems to be a perfect combination of some sort.

There is a certain pattern of Yang style that has me mystified and I saw pieces of it exhibited by a few old Yang stye practitioners and
Yang Jun has somehow "reintegrated it" into the current Yang scheme. I have also seen some old Wu style (YUxan) do the same movement pattern. My use of 1950s pre and post era is just an arbitrary guestimate
since the 1950?? was when Committees were set up to promote taijiquan because many did not know what it was hence the 24Beijingshitaijiquan.

See 3:21 - 3:35 Yang Essentail Form Note: Wave hands in Clouds, pattern of movement
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Re: Kurt Wong Chen Taijiquan Du Ye Ze

Postby wayne hansen on Tue May 23, 2023 1:42 pm

Looks like it’s just a new product to sell
If that is the original cloud hands why is it not done that way in any other system
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Re: Kurt Wong Chen Taijiquan Du Ye Ze

Postby Bhassler on Tue May 23, 2023 2:00 pm

I've seen the circular stepping cloud hands done before. Not presented as the "original," just as a way you could practice it if you wanted. IIRC, it was from one of the Beijing lines of Chen style.
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Re: Kurt Wong Chen Taijiquan Du Ye Ze

Postby Appledog on Tue May 23, 2023 5:40 pm

Bhassler wrote:I've seen the circular stepping cloud hands done before. Not presented as the "original," just as a way you could practice it if you wanted. IIRC, it was from one of the Beijing lines of Chen style.


Well, in the Chen style I've seen, versus any other style I have seen, such as Sun style, you step behind the leading foot in cloud hands. In other styles like Sun style you don't, you step towards the other foot and transfer weight there. But given that even within a style there are multiple ways and variations of doing particular moves, for external reference the Ma Hong DVD is very good. I think he shows three or four variations of hidden hand punch.

Given the experience of learning three different variations of cloud hands myself, I don't see the big deal, but I do understand how the question can arise how well this style of the movement will fit in the form. To me it looks quite nice and flowing, but.. I haven't done Yang style in a while.. hard to say..

I in fact invented a fourth method of cloud hands for Sun style, because I wanted to practice it in a limited space. It is a method of stepping which is slightly circular and enables me to perform cloud hands endlessly in a circle without too much change in foot pattern. I.E. the deviation seems to feel acceptable.
Last edited by Appledog on Tue May 23, 2023 5:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Kurt Wong Chen Taijiquan Du Ye Ze

Postby Bhassler on Tue May 23, 2023 6:31 pm

To be clear, the circular stepping I was shown was not for the form, it was to break out and practice specific jin and applications.
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Re: Kurt Wong Chen Taijiquan Du Ye Ze

Postby yeniseri on Wed May 24, 2023 1:16 pm

wayne hansen wrote:Looks like it’s just a new product to sell
If that is the original cloud hands why is it not done that way in any other system


Your question is an excellent while saying that it is applicable to the many style of the same family all having different ways of playing a posture.
As example, Why does "Single Whip" appear so different in many representations of Yang style..Zhang Manqing's version vs the normal version of Yang Chengfu or even Yang Zhenduo.

Even across styles, the same named posture takes on "many shapes" and degree of chanssujin within the postural configuration!
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Re: Kurt Wong Chen Taijiquan Du Ye Ze

Postby wayne hansen on Wed May 24, 2023 1:26 pm

The difference of CMC & YCF SW is only superficial as it is with Wu and Chen
All 4 are the same and in fact each one throws light on the other
Even people who I only teach Yang I always give them Wu cloud hands to teach them correct Shen Fa
SW is just the flower of CH opening up
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Re: Kurt Wong Chen Taijiquan Du Ye Ze

Postby robert on Thu May 25, 2023 12:50 pm

Bhassler wrote:To be clear, the circular stepping I was shown was not for the form, it was to break out and practice specific jin and applications.

I've done something similar with CB as part of an informal fang song gong. Many different postures can be used, but most people are familiar with yun shou.
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Re: Kurt Wong Chen Taijiquan Du Ye Ze

Postby wayne hansen on Fri May 26, 2023 12:43 pm

CB?
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