the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

If anyone thinks the gent in the video is showing only basic power skill with no developed connections and harmonies (ming Jin) that says more about you and your level of understanding than about him

Quigga wrote:If anyone thinks the gent in the video is showing only basic power skill with no developed connections and harmonies (ming Jin) that says more about you and your level of understanding than about him

We all have things to learn, we all are on different paths, some are in low valleys, some are on mountain tops ... most just in-between

My 2 cents... I believe what he is doing is to be inferior, maybe it's effective, but IMO not "best practice shen fa" in reference to Xingyiquan.

For starters Ming jin is the base line of Xingyiquan, it is not advanced like An and Hua, but non the less most fundamental. Yes... at the Ming level you develop your raw power, but what is on display IMO isn't xingyiquan power. There is no whippy exaggerated movements in Xingyiquan. Pi Quan, as he does that over and over in the vid. (he just using his shoulder and whipping his hand out. Does it have force? Sure it does... but so does a slap

Where is the high level Bing fa?


In reference to the Wu Jing (the five elements) PI is a force and a concept... The mechanics of Pi Quan are designed to chop or cut. In this case I'll use a standard attack of a Lead and a Cross.. when you get adept... the drilling is a pseudo wedge block caused by the hand rising and drilling up, covers your centerline, the other hand is palm strike based on the back half of the overturning and falling (the old way was to use a fist instead of the palm strike) It's very important to understand how the mechanics exists in reference to tempo and timing. If a lead, cross combination has a tempo of throwing the lead on #1, then following it up with a cross is on #2 .. Pi Quan (if your doing the mechanics correctly) strikes on the tempo/time/beat... that exists "in-between" #1 & #2.. the wedge caused by the drilling, deflects the lead/jab, opens up the opponent's centerline, & the palm chop/ cut/penetrates through the opponent's center.


In order for the mechanic to work, to be effective, it mandates you penetrate with your whole body into your opponent's centerline, & not snap back.

Notice: Pi Quan mechanics does not call for Chi Sao, Rou Shou or Tui Shou skill sets, but it's own set of skill sets based around Xingyiquan's Rise, Drill, Fall and Overturning, and obviously a mastery of actual fight dynamics like timing etc is also needed. (another big pet peeve of mine is when I see someone doing Xingyiquan and treating it like Wing Chun or Taijiquan) All of the Wu Xing have different ingenious mechanics on par with what I described with PI Quan. All of them rely on penetrating your opponent's centerline, while guarding your own, using the whole body as power generation. Beng Quan, the equivalent of "Thrust Kicking" with your hands. The mechanics are not a Wing Chun type chain punching. Your using the force from the ground (by uncoiling your coccyx in conjunction with either Deng or Tang Jin (driving off the rear foot, or falling onto the lead foot) framing up your core and punching/thrusting at the same time.. Your putting your whole weight behind your vertical fist, elbows hugging your centerline you become a 200lbs bag of rice with a protruding fist, in a controlled format, you have just thrown yourself at the opponent. (the distance can be short or long... doesn't matter) You use the expansion/vector of the punch-thrust to deflect/ move out of the way any defense the opponent has. (A bag of rice doesn't whip out and come back... its mass bowls right through ) It's half a punch, half a thrust and all your body weight... hence Crushing Fist. Again, no whippy movements. Learning to do this seamlessly in fluid combinations is the key to achieving prowess with Beng quan. (it's not a western boxing cross ) When you have occupied your opponent's space, Beng Quan's ability to check the opponent's punches is legendary. Projecting the Beng quan across the angle of attack(s) (pseudo punch blocking) this isn't done by pulling your hand back. (and beware the flicking elbows of Beng Quan!) again not pulling your hands back. requires a projection mechanic,

The reliance on this "whole body projection" is the neijia in xuezhe quanji of Xingyiquan


I see in the vid too much snappy" rise & drill... and then a "whippy" overturn and fall.

Does it look effective? Sure... But so does a jab, and a cross... however in reference to Xingyiquan it is not "Best practice "Shen fa"

My teacher said that some of the Xingyiquan guys in Beijing would drill with the fist, then overturn and palm strike to Yintang point on the opponent. Totally jacked up.

.

I usually take the plane, no need for mountains and valleys haha

Pi Quan was developed to defend against the prominent Western boxers in China who scared people with their jab cross, yes of course...

Not saying I'm better than all Western boxers

Thanks for explaining your understanding.....

Any shape or frame you put onto the body using the mind is inferior

The body already is perfect, all movements result from the proper method

Can you believe that his entire body is in that snapping movement? And in the pulling back as well?

You described Ming Jin

Glenn funny you say that, I practiced that way years ago without knowing

Quigga wrote:I usually take the plane, no need for mountains and valleys haha
Pi Quan was developed to defend against the prominent Western boxers in China who scared people with their jab cross, yes of course...

That was just an explanation of one application... and application that if not versed in Xingyiquan, one could understand. It's nice your so literal... by you own words, "You think a lead and a cross was/is exclusive to Western boxing? I think I'm getting enlightened ... I'm Starting to formulate an opinion... Yes, indeed I am..

Not saying I'm better than all Western boxers

Oh ... You're very modest... And I have to admit your words are having an impact on me. Having sparred a few in my day , (using Xingyiquan no less) on the surface, your words would be a stretch, of course. yet, it's not everyday I get to engage in dialog with an actual Kung fu master... being on the internet and all.... Your words tell me that there is no telling how deep your laoshi goes. I'm truly honored.

Thanks for explaining your understanding.....

Sir... You are just too modest... My words were just a surface explanation, with a novice's understanding of two deep gongs.
I must apologies .. I didn't know you were Shiji Chuanqi, I didn't see your cup, being so full, I didn't mean to almost make you spill it.

Any shape or frame you put onto the body using the mind is inferior
The body already is perfect, all movements result from the proper method
Can you believe that his entire body is in that snapping movement? And in the pulling back as well?

This is straight up deep like Kong Zi deep! Damn! lol.
zhè ràngwǒ dùguò le yìtiān lol

Quigga wrote:Any shape or frame you put onto the body using the mind is inferior

The body already is perfect, all movements result from the proper method

They don't call yiquan "mind boxing" for nothing. Without the mind, there is no internal art.

Kong Bao Long wrote:

Quigga wrote:I usually take the plane, no need for mountains and valleys haha
Pi Quan was developed to defend against the prominent Western boxers in China who scared people with their jab cross, yes of course...

That was just an explanation of one application... and application that if not versed in Xingyiquan, one could understand. It's nice your so literal... by you own words, "You think a lead and a cross was/is exclusive to Western boxing? I think I'm getting enlightened ... I'm Starting to formulate an opinion... Yes, indeed I am..

Not saying I'm better than all Western boxers

Oh ... You're very modest... And I have to admit your words are having an impact on me. Having sparred a few in my day , (using Xingyiquan no less) on the surface, your words would be a stretch, of course. yet, it's not everyday I get to engage in dialog with an actual Kung fu master... being on the internet and all.... Your words tell me that there is no telling how deep your laoshi goes. I'm truly honored.

Thanks for explaining your understanding.....

Sir... You are just too modest... My words were just a surface explanation, with a novice's understanding of two deep gongs.
I must apologies .. I didn't know you were Shiji Chuanqi, I didn't see your cup, being so full, I didn't mean to almost make you spill it.

Any shape or frame you put onto the body using the mind is inferior
The body already is perfect, all movements result from the proper method
Can you believe that his entire body is in that snapping movement? And in the pulling back as well?

This is straight up deep like Kong Zi deep! Damn! lol.
zhè ràngwǒ dùguò le yìtiān lol

No worries my cup keeps refilling itself. Wishing you good success on your practice journey of deeper understanding

Taste of Death wrote:

Quigga wrote:Any shape or frame you put onto the body using the mind is inferior

The body already is perfect, all movements result from the proper method

They don't call yiquan "mind boxing" for nothing. Without the mind, there is no internal art.

I didn't say you don't use the mind

Quigga wrote:

Taste of Death wrote:

Quigga wrote:Any shape or frame you put onto the body using the mind is inferior

The body already is perfect, all movements result from the proper method

They don't call yiquan "mind boxing" for nothing. Without the mind, there is no internal art.

I didn't say you don't use the mind

I try to use it as little as possible.

That's also not correct

Quigga wrote:
No worries my cup keeps refilling itself. Wishing you good success on your practice journey of deeper understanding

and same to you Shiji Chuanqi... Your sage wisdom honors us all.

I know. You won't find better wisdom in a thousand years!

I try to use it as little as possible.

Agree.