Maybe Silk Reeling

[everything]

on the "outside", I like a lot of these examples you guys do yourselves or show others doing. But I don't like them any more than any top athlete doing graceful movements.

on the "inside", well ...... it's ok if anybody here cannot articulate more. I don't really care if anyone cannot "do" much with it. nobody here is actually going to defeat prime Fedor (drink, origami) whether you learn to break boards or sink qi to dantian or do arm bars or throws. I'm interested in what you think you "feel" and are "working on" especially if you think it's "IMA". if it's "athletic" stuff, I agree with the mma crowd around here. There are proven ways to help top athletes use their "spirals".

[windwalker]

@giles


Kudos for posting your work….

Makes it easier to understand your point of reference.


Some observations….

You back seems to be very stiff,,,



There are what some call the 3 gates,,,roughly speaking

“The Three Gates refer to the "Tailbone Gate" at the lower end of the spine, the "Spinal Canal Gate" between the shoulder blades while lying prone, and the "Jade Pillow Gate" at the back of the head when lying supine.”

“There are four ways to use the Three Gates: standing the Three Gates, leading the Three Gates upward, retracting the Three Gates backward, and extending the Three Gates forward.

The form and application of the Three Gates are both guided by intention.

It's important not to treat the specific physical locations of the Three Gates (coccyx, thoracic vertebrae, and occiput) as targets for specific motions such as standing, leading, retracting, or extending. Instead, any movement involving the Three Gates is accomplished by guiding internal energy through them in a continuous line, led by intention.”

The description quite literal in my practice

Different practices may refer to this by different names or attribute different ideas to them.

Looking at your movement through this lens

One of the central ideas of this is to allow the “Qi” to flow freely leading the movements initiated by intention controlled through the “dantien”

Your movement in many places does not appear to be originating from this point. Not connected isolated….

Some have mentioned other practices,i.e. sports or other activities ... .

I would say they are not reflective of this as they are not based on this idea…superficially they might appear to be ,
comprehensively, they will not be able to achieve the same effects that most question…

The inner feeling becomes quite substantial, outwardly appearing to be very fluid and dynamic as if someone is moving through water or there appears to be something more to the quality of the movement….

The real point is functionality what is it useful for, what does it reflect in ones practice…

Kind of depends on what the practice is based on..
if its not based on the same concepts, it can not be looked at in the same way….

as it was said …ie “maybe it’s silk reeling”

Maybe it's not

Does it matter ?

[Quigga]

Guess it doesn't really matter

[everything]

Nothing matters in the end haha. No need for politics or neigong.

But in the meantime…

If we are going to attempt neigong, all this talk seems too “advanced” and maybe a red herring.

If we are going to attempt movement, it seems “esoteric” and a red herring.

Are we trying for, say, “omnidirectional force”?

“Small circle jiu jitsu”?

Or are we interested in “taijiquan”?

[Quigga]

What's talked about are basics

[Giles]

I've been elsewhere for a while, nice to have time again to reply...

@giles


Kudos for posting your work….

Makes it easier to understand your point of reference.


Some observations….

You back seems to be very stiff,,,

That's an interesting remark. One the one hand I do indeed have to be careful with my back nowadays due to past wear&tear (although that doesn't mean I can't run, jump, spar, fall, rock'n'roll...). On the other hand my back is, in principle, pretty flexible through all vertebrae. Because if I don't keep it in this state, it starts to suffer pain. On what basis, i.e. on which videos or moments of videos, do you base your judgement?
If it's on the first video I posted in this thread, the 'great tai chi wheel', then one aspect of this exercise is to keep the spine fully vertical and 'straight' as it connects to the hands and feet. 'Straight' meaning here the straightness of an outsize string of pearls or chain, or indeed a waterfall, that hangs vertical with gravity, and will always return to vertical - not the straightness (and stiffness) of a rod. So may aim at least here is to be constantly 'dissolving' through the spine, surrounding tissues and hips to achieve connected verticality. But maybe a) you aren't referencing this video or b) I'm missing something. Anyway, speaking generally, and also as a sometime masseur and craniosacral practitioner, I can be fairly confident that my back is not "very stiff" in absolute terms. But on the other hand, I can certainly believe that you might be seeing specific blockage points at specific moments and I'd be open to your feedback here. Can you tell me in which videos or at which moments you see back stiffness and also where in my back? And where - lumbar, thoracic, cervical?

One of the central ideas of this is to allow the “Qi” to flow freely leading the movements initiated by intention controlled through the “dantien”

Your movement in many places does not appear to be originating from this point. Not connected isolated….

It's certainly true that I'm not really bothered about initiating movement specifically in the lower dantien. Not all the time anyway. This is not the alpha and omega of tai chi chuan. Connect through this area, integrate it and use it for control, sure, but not necessarily initiate there. As to whether I am actually connected through my body at such moments where you doubt it - well, I think the only way to test that would be if you and I were to do some free (and of course friendly) push hands together. Which is extremely unlikely, given our respective locations. A pity really.

as it was said …ie “maybe it’s silk reeling”

Maybe it's not

Does it matter ?

In the end, no, it doesn't. What matters is whether it's soft, connected, grounded and resilient (and can be tested empirically as such during some form of physical contact/exchange. And whether establishing and moving within this state is good in various ways for body and also for soul.

[Michael Babin]

Gilles, Thanks for sharing your solo efforts,

In 1990, I participated in a week long training camp and it was eye-opening for me in many ways even though I had already been doing Yang-style taiji as well as Chinese hard styles for more than a decade. Not all the “eye-opening” moments were good and one of the worst was a morning workshop with someone who had trained seriously as a mime and was there to get us to be more expressive in our solo form work [for competitive purposes, I suppose].

The workshop leader told us about his daily forays to the park in which he would spend 20 or so minutes free-styling a mix of mime, dance, tae kwon do and taiji while those passing by gave him odd looks. As someone who was principally interested in traditional Yang taiji as a martial art; I could understand why he got odd looks! It wasn’t my favourite session of the week!

What you did in that short clip you posted was much more interesting to watch than what that fellow had done thirty-odd years ago, Giles, and you have the grace and connectivity of an experienced dancer for sure. Is it whole body movement or “silk reeling”… maybe not but it certainly looks like a great way to spend time on a sunny day in a park. I also think that a lot of what you are doing would support martial skills from a recreational or even self-defence perspective.

Experience always shows and your time as a dancer certainly does [and that’s not meant as a snide insult of any kind either].

[Giles]

Experience always shows and your time as a dancer certainly does [and that’s not meant as a snide insult of any kind either].

Thanks, Michael, much appreciated.
Indeed, in our (broad and diverse) IMA circles it can be used as a dire insult: "You, you.... dancer!!" ... And in many cases with justification when critiquing empty, floaty, wavy-handy tai chi with no martial usefulness. Speaking myself as an ex-dancer who is nowadays much more into other stuff.

[windwalker]

That's an interesting remark. One the one hand I do indeed have to be careful with my back nowadays due to past wear&tear (although that doesn't mean I can't run, jump, spar, fall, rock'n'roll...). On the other hand my back is, in principle, pretty flexible through all vertebrae.
Because if I don't keep it in this state, it starts to suffer pain. On what basis, i.e. on which videos or moments of videos, do you base your judgement?

Not a judgement only an observation through the lens of my own work and experience of those I've practiced with in my teachers group...based on what seems to be a different idea not the subject of this thread

I take it you practice the 37 step ?

what is shown in your practice seems quite common among practitioners of that line if indeed it is the line you practice...it looks similar in nature..
Somewhat familiar with it..

Not a fan of push hands other then some small usage in training..
In some cases testing concepts with others...

In closing looked at the clips again...hold with my original thoughts not that it makes a difference.
good posting your work....kudos...

[RobP3]

Experience always shows and your time as a dancer certainly does [and that’s not meant as a snide insult of any kind either].

Thanks, Michael, much appreciated.
Indeed, in our (broad and diverse) IMA circles it can be used as a dire insult: "You, you.... dancer!!" ... And in many cases with justification when critiquing empty, floaty, wavy-handy tai chi with no martial usefulness. Speaking myself as an ex-dancer who is nowadays much more into other stuff.

Lol, that's true. Yet I've had the opportunity to work with professional dancers - not only was their movement much better than most martial artists I've trained, they were also tougher and happier people too

[Michael Babin]

Good points about dancers, Rob, though the ones that I have met in the Yang Taiji world rarely had the professionalism derived through serious study of any form of dance. The relatively few people like that tend to be serious about whatever they study unlike the majority of dabblers who go for the “touchy-feely” approach to modern body movement.

On the other hand, musicians, in my experience teaching, often made the best students — especially drummers — though guitar players were often reluctant to go fully into the martial stuff because of worrying about the state of their fingers. I had one student for a while who used to get a laugh out of grabbing the guitarist’s fingers in chin-na type moves and asking them with an evil grin “What are you going to do now!”

[Giles]

I had one student for a while who used to get a laugh out of grabbing the guitarist’s fingers in chin-na type moves and asking them with an evil grin “What are you going to do now!”

Suggestion: "Yield with the spiral of your grasp, reverse the lock back onto you and play the riff from Enter Sandman on your elbow joint."

[BruceP]

Not a judgement only an observation through the lens of my own work and experience of those I've practiced with in my teachers group...

Wish I'd noticed the link earlier

Had to watch it at 1/4 speed to see the neutralizings the few times the other fellow gets extended with his right side. Nice work

[origami_itto]

[q

Not a judgement only an observation through the lens of my own work and experience of those I've practiced with in my teachers group...based on what seems to be a different idea not the subject of this thread
.

Is one of them you?

If so I take back all the crap I talked about your hand wavy hiccup stuff.

[Giles]

Are you the guy on the right, WW? I like that guy's performance, and I also have a couple of questions about this.