BJJ only works if you play along with it.

[origami_itto]

Does Brazilian Jiu Jitsu work in self-defense or street fight? Today I compete in a Jiujitsu tournament to see what happens if you don't go to the ground. Because that's the last place you wanna be in real life.

[Sea.Wolf.Forge]

Let me Coles Notes this for you -
"I, Jesse Encamp, a lifelong practitioner and instructor of karate, entered a BJJ tournament as a white belt against someone who has less than 18 months experience in combat sports, he was unable to take me down or submit me and therefore BJJ doesn't work.

If he had any integrity at all he would have entered at blue/purple/brown/black belt with people of equivalent experience in combatives, or entered an open No-Gi tournament where the standard of wrestling is higher. Shit, he could have just as easily entered a Judo tournament under the same premise gotten thrown a mile and then choked for his trouble.

This is the martial arts equivalent of TTRPG's "I roll to disbelieve."

He's going to poke a hornets nest with this and the fanboys will love/hate him for it. He's objectively wrong, but hey, clicks on social media amirite?

[Bhassler]

Sea Wolf beat me to it.

The hypothesis has been pretty thoroughly tested in MMA. Some guys can make incredible careers against world class competition by staying on their feet. It works great until it doesn't. In addition to picking on white belts, tournaments are also limited by weight class. Jesse lost his balance quite often, and a larger, stronger opponent would have doubtless made him pay. Or someone with a background in wrestling, etc., etc..

And, to double down some more, it's a bit of a dick move to enter a tournament as a beginner just to fuck with people. The other person had to pay for entry, too, and they were most likely trying to learn something and improve the sport that they spent a lot of time and money on. Pretty shitty to fuck with someone else's path who's just minding their business so you can get your clicks in.

The premise is not totally invalid, but the approach was poor.

[Bao]

Yes, he didn’t go against someone who knows how to shoot for a takedown. Just look at early UFC, the Gracies went in to shoot all of the time and what they did just about always worked. The people certainly didn’t go along with anything, in the first tournaments everyone was taken by surprise.

But he still makes a couple of valid points.

[Sea.Wolf.Forge]

It's interesting as someone who's been in BJJ since 2004 to see how the style has changed over that short time - the most recent evolutions from the No-Gi side with aggressive wrestling up from bottom position has been a massive shift for the better IMO. There has been a de-emphasis on takedowns in gi but they still regularly are the deciding factor in world championship level matches. 50/50, berimbolo, leglocks - all kinds of weird subspecializations have come and instead of going are just now a part of the syllabus of BJJ. Watching successful grapplers succeed (and fail) in MMA is hugely relevant - the pure BJJ stylist rarely has the tools to succeed at a high level - the last in my mind being Damian Maia who had several bouts where his inability to drag it to the ground was the beginning of the end and that these bouts were against people with strong wrestling background is not a coincidence.

As someone who pretends to be a "well-rounded fighter" I absolutely believe I can beat specialists by taking them out of their strong skillset, but I absolutely accept if they can dictate where the fight takes place I will quickly be on the losing side of the argument. I would have hoped Jesse would have had the integrity to participate in a more honest context.

Derrick Lewis' success denying grappling exchanges has a lot of recent press but Fedor did the same thing to Noguiera in Pride.
Craig Jones has a DVD series now titled "Just Stand Up" that shows some of the holes in pinning tactics of modern BJJ. Thinking that you get to do it without some serious training to understand when and how is the fallacy.

[everything]

I guess if you didn't live through the mid 90s - mid 00s, things just don't exist?

geez people can't really learn from history (hahahaha get off my lawn )

[Sea.Wolf.Forge]

I guess if you didn't live through the mid 90s - mid 00s, things just don't exist?

geez people can't really learn from history (hahahaha get off my lawn )

I was a teenage in the 90s so that muddies my waters a bit, that said the cultural intellect (even of grapplers) back then was quite low, Royce had success in the UFC because the people he was fighting we literally clueless, but he wasn't terribly talented compared to others in the family and his style would not be effective in modern Sport JJ or MMA. There has been a dramatic change in the technique and strategy of submission grapplers. Wrestlers too - the ground and pound of the early days does not hold up to modern defense, its now necessary to use rides and handcuffs very differently to keep someone broken down so they can be struck effectively.

This is me admitting that BJJ is new, flawed and still rapidly growing. I don't think it ever becomes complete with its syllabus and the IBJJF competition focus, there may be niche branches that do - "Combat JJ" has open hand strikes, No-Gi has better wrestling and punishes guard pulling in the rules, but it's not truly self-defense or MMA oriented without significant modification and additional skillsets IMO.

[GrahamB]

BJJ is "new"? People have some really strange ideas on the age of marital arts, or confuse "new" with "popular".

There was Jiujitsu in Brazil before there was Karate in Japan.

BJJ is older than Aikido or Taekwondo

Muay Thai is way older than Tai Chi.

[Dmitri]

Does Brazilian Jiu Jitsu work in self-defense or street fight? Today I compete in a Jiujitsu tournament to see what happens if you don't go to the ground. Because that's the last place you wanna be in real life.

Why watch someone else's video, when you can stop by a BJJ school (or find an enthusiast to play with) yourself? I stopped by an MMA gym at the "height" of my taiji training, and nobody came even close to taking me down, except for the main guy/head of the school who managed to take me down once (single leg). But - I trained very extensively in "push hands"-like activities where remaining on your feet is one of the top priorities. These guys did not (train that, or against that). On my part, I've never even imagined the possibility/mechanics of such a takedown. Also, we weren't striking, which is a huge factor that, yes, works in both directions, but is absolutely crucial to setting up successful grappling outcomes.
There's no more magic in BJJ than in any other MA. Takedowns are hard when one's some purpose is to avoid them and not be distracted with little things like strikes or at least trying to take the other guy down yourself.
Bottom line? I left with a huge dose of healthy respect for their training, and have been training Gracie JJ since 2008.
Go play with a capable BJJ person instead of posting silly YouTube videos.
FWIW

[Sea.Wolf.Forge]

BJJ is "new"? People have some really strange ideas on the age of marital arts, or confuse "new" with "popular".

There was Jiujitsu in Brazil before there was Karate in Japan.

BJJ is older than Aikido or Taekwondo

Muay Thai is way older than Tai Chi.

Yeah, some techniques are "old" but the methodology, training format and competition forum are "new" - this isnt even up for debate. Watch the OG judo ne-waza - it does not have the movement of modern BJJ and the submissions are often less secure and setting them up is less refined. Modern BJJ in competition pulls 1950's gracie jiu jitsu apart at the seams - I'm talking blue belt vs black belt for equivalency.
No training format in japanese antiquity focused on ne waza to the same degree - even the hugely grappling focused Kosen Judo.
That someone made a block print of someone doing an armbar does not mean that practitioner had equivalent skill.
Hominid Swimming has been around since early ape-men fell in the water and didn't die, but the fastest swimmers in history are modern olympic swimmers - there is no reason to view competitive martial arts any differently - more of us do it, we are better athletes, the competition forums allow for more refinement. Older doesn't mean better.

[GrahamB]

Sorry, just because people are better at it today than they were in 1925 doesn't mean it's "new" A leg triangle from the 1930s still looks like a leg triangle today. A kimura still looks like a kimura, etc...

It's basically the same art - same name. The training methods have evolved and the techniques have evolved, sure. But BJJ as a distinct entity is almost 100 years old.

Nobody says Wing Chun is now "new" because people are better at it today than they were in 1967...

Although, in Chinese marital arts it's weird because the general perception is that the standard gets worse over time (nobody is as good as their master), whereas in combat sports it gets better over time - that's something to think about....

[Steve James]

I'd argue that "martial arts" don't improve, they evolve. Athletes have improved over time. Nowadays, there are more people practicing martial arts than there were when these arts were invented. One reason is that now martial arts are more sports than martial. For ex., when it comes to swords, I wouldn't dare to say that people who practice today are better, at all, or that sword-fighting has improved. People who fence don't generally worry about being killed. When it comes to combat sports, damn, it'd be great to see Randy Couture v Farmer Burns or Lou Thesz.

The Brits and US had plenty of submission wrestling, too. Anyway, imo, the idea that "Bjj only works if you play along," is like saying catch wrestling only works if you play along. It depends entirely on who one is playing with. And, in the end, it doesn't matter because there's always someone else.

[everything]

it's good to all beat up on the same strawman for a change. instead of everyone beating up everyone else's supposed misconstrued strawman.

[origami_itto]

I'd argue that "martial arts" don't improve, they evolve. Athletes have improved over time. Nowadays, there are more people practicing martial arts than there were when these arts were invented. One reason is that now martial arts are more sports than martial. For ex., when it comes to swords, I wouldn't dare to say that people who practice today are better, at all, or that sword-fighting has improved. People who fence don't generally worry about being killed. When it comes to combat sports, damn, it'd be great to see Randy Couture v Farmer Burns or Lou Thesz.

The Brits and US had plenty of submission wrestling, too. Anyway, imo, the idea that "Bjj only works if you play along," is like saying catch wrestling only works if you play along. It depends entirely on who one is playing with. And, in the end, it doesn't matter because there's always someone else.

I mean. Boxing only works if you play along and don't kick, right? Kickboxing only works if you play along and don't go the ground. Everything only works if you play along and follow the referee's instructions.

[Sea.Wolf.Forge]

it's good to all beat up on the same strawman for a change. instead of everyone beating up everyone else's supposed misconstrued strawman.

Everyone united against a single silly premise, it's a beautiful thing.

One comment about how the techniques look the same so they are the same is interesting - Is the wright brothers plane and an F-16 equivalent because they both have propulsion, a fuselage and wings? At what point do we accept an advancement is significant enough to differentiate an "era" of development like they did to separate gliders from propellers from jet-power?

The comment about traditional martial arts getting worse over time where combat sports are getting better over time is one I've thought about a lot. As a blacksmith I have to accept that my abilities as a smith in the traditional sense will be lower than those of a traditional smith from the feudal ages of europe/middle east/asia because it is not my vocation to make everyday implements. That said, because of my ability to access information on modern understandings of metallurgy and historical methods and over a decade of work - my edged tools are at least equivalent or superior cutting tools compared to those of old. If those smiths had access to information as I have, had access to the equipment I do - their smithing would change dramatically as well.

That said - Blacksmithing is a craft with a low mortality rate and high repetition, the same cannot be said for MORTAL KOMBAT so it becomes a more difficult equation.

Legendary practitioners given access to modern knowledge of kinesiology, anatomy and combatives competition would likely also adapt to those new opportunities.

Thinking otherwise is kind of weird given the successes of the modern day. I struggle to think of any traditional knowledge or ancestor worship that was instrumental in the technical advancement of civilizations. I would be happy to discuss it though.