the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

Loved learning this form below - I believe we simply called it bagua fist and distinguished from the other linear form call bagua combination hand

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7ocLXgN_CM

八卦拳（又稱羅漢拳或八卦砲捶）
Bagua Quan (also known as Luohan Quan or Bagua Pao Chui)




Other forms complete mizong I and II

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6x548ypeHw



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3VyNrTNlJc

what does "linear form" mean? did someone / people decide to deviate from "circle walking"?

No one knows what the sets of unadulterated, original Dong Haichuan
bagua teachings consisted of - some say he customized teachings to the strengths of the individual being taught.

Does all bagua training only consist of circle walking?

What if the linear forms, forms done along lines, can be collapsed into circle walking among 9 posts?

What if those lines follow the segmented lines of the 8 directions of the bagua diagram?

Bob wrote:No one knows what the sets of unadulterated, original Dong Haichuan
bagua teachings consisted of - some say he customized teachings to the strengths of the individual being taught.

Does all bagua training only consist of circle walking?

What if the linear forms, forms done along lines, can be collapsed into circle walking among 9 posts?

What if those lines follow the segmented lines of the 8 directions of the bagua diagram?

really interesting. it makes me think of those FMA diagrams. even if nobody knows much about Dong (which kind of makes it more fascinating from a distance), I assume there is some written or oral history of "such and such line added this 'linear' drill". or people can compare "do you have this line drill in your lineage". Google AI thinks someone with a xingyi background recently added "line drills".

According to what I’ve gathered over the years. DHC taught Gong Baotian the Monkey System which is all about kicking and countering kicks. But it can all be done in a high basin and counter hand to hand. I can see a lot of Monkey movements in that straight line form.

Teaching in the Imperial Palace was handed off to Yin Fu, but when he made the error of re-marrying after his first wife died, Gong Baotian took over teaching. The straight line and Lohan forms were what were being taught in the palace.

In the Yin Fu school new prospects were only taught the Lohan forms. If they became an Inner-Door disciple then they would learn the Circular forms- Penetrating Palm System that DHC based on Yin Fu’s former Martial Art- Snake Tongue Striking; then move onto DHC’s 8 Animal Systems, which were never to be practiced in front of outsiders.

.

someone needs to make a really good movie about those plots.

why would Yin have to step back due to remarriage? seems like a good side plot (maybe to over-dramatize)

Actually though- the 8 animals are done on a square within the circle. The four corners, four midpoints of each side, and the center point, are the nine palaces where the feet are placed. It looks circular because you can make a 270 degree turn around an outside corner. The Penetrating Palm forms actually might look more circular because you weave around the 9 Palaces as if they were poles sticking up from the ground.

Re-marrying was a taboo. Especially amongst the aristocracy of the palace.

One of the main signatures of the Monkey system, which you won’t find in the other Animals, is the Lunge Step with the heel of your back foot lifted off the ground.

The diagram I saw as an explanation as to where the directions of our "linear" bagua were marked is the one at the .15 mark of the Wu style clip

I readily admit to have a limited understanding of how this all fits together.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_AU2AOCaEU

See diagram at the .15 mark



Beating a dead horse again, here is a clip of Liu Yunqiao showing how to collapse the Ying Shou "linear" form into the circle walking

I did learn how to play the form as long "linear" lines and engaging with circle walking using different internal palms at various corners and then returning to the "linear" lines

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYQOLWeS30Y



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbgkia31YI4

You can see at the 5:25 mark (our bagua needle form) where you see linear segments and then you see one of the mother palms break into circles walking and then back into linear and then another mother palm into the circle - My guess is that the entire form can be collapsed into the circle or collapsed into the 9 posts - unfortunately never got to that level and claim no authority to the bagua system we learned.

A general shout out - please don't make the claim that Liu Yunqiao put bajiquan into bagua

If there is any speculative inference, Liu Yunqiao was sold on "softness" after getting nailed, at a young age, by the LIuhe Tanglang Master and also the Yang style taijiquan that General Zhang Xiangwu "forced" him to learn along with all of the taiji classics.

Bob wrote:No one knows what the sets of unadulterated, original Dong Haichuan
bagua teachings consisted of - some say he customized teachings to the strengths of the individual being taught.

Does all bagua training only consist of circle walking?

What if the linear forms, forms done along lines, can be collapsed into circle walking among 9 posts?

What if those lines follow the segmented lines of the 8 directions of the bagua diagram?

Are you talking about the 9 palaces?

What I noticed about that is that if you take the pre-heaven and assign them numbers, left to right top to bottom, put 5 in the center, then move them to the post-heaven (which in Tai Chi documents at least is referred to as the 9 palaces) arrangement, the numbers form a magic square wherein the sum of each line horizontal, vertical and diagonal, add up to the same number.

So I learned a practice where you walk poles or circles in the sequence 1-9 where the numbers are arranged in that 9 palaces magic square sequence.

I hadn't considered the orientation of the trigrams toward the center in that arrangement...

Is that anything like what you're referring to?

origami_itto wrote:

Bob wrote:No one knows what the sets of unadulterated, original Dong Haichuan
bagua teachings consisted of - some say he customized teachings to the strengths of the individual being taught.

Does all bagua training only consist of circle walking?

What if the linear forms, forms done along lines, can be collapsed into circle walking among 9 posts?

What if those lines follow the segmented lines of the 8 directions of the bagua diagram?

Are you talking about the 9 palaces?

What I noticed about that is that if you take the pre-heaven and assign them numbers, left to right top to bottom, put 5 in the center, then move them to the post-heaven (which in Tai Chi documents at least is referred to as the 9 palaces) arrangement, the numbers form a magic square wherein the sum of each line horizontal, vertical and diagonal, add up to the same number.

So I learned a practice where you walk poles or circles in the sequence 1-9 where the numbers are arranged in that 9 palaces magic square sequence.

I hadn't considered the orientation of the trigrams toward the center in that arrangement...

Is that anything like what you're referring to?

I've seen references to the 9 post walking from books like Nam Park (not sure if his name right - Korean teacher) and the old Bagua Journal but we never referenced it as such and the numbering and sequencing is well beyond my experience

We actually put posts in the backyard of our teacher

We packed the post holes with gravel so they had give when you struck them otherwise they would cement themselves into the mud and we learned basic one and two post apps but my teacher moved to a new house and the posts stayed put at the old house LOL

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ReAqOl970U



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mI1wxeRld5Q



https://www.youtube.com/shorts/SGwaj7p-gwo

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/shorts/SGwaj7p-gwo[/youtube]

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/SGwaj7p-gwo

As a side note - what I did learn and still practice is the circle walking with static mother palms

The clip below is a sample of what I learned - I only used the mother palms that had a symmetry because I would use either rings or light wrist weights (nothing ever heavy) and provided balanced movements

We started with the kidney palm (internal) back palm (external) lung palm (internal -transitional) Yao palm (external) Liver palm (internal) then a global like palm (external) all done on one side and then the entire sequence was done in the other direction - no alternating direction as done in regular circle walking.

I also could use this for walking on bricks as it kept a balanced symmetry and was a stable way to train on bricks - Tom Bisio has a similar set in his bagua series and also his meditation series but we never considered it for meditation.

You could also do these in a straight line especially if you wanted to do the mud sliding step which I never spent much time on. Mud sliding stepping was never a big part of the system - we mostly employed a rolling step

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vwvy6WuXU4Y



https://www.internalartsinternational.c ... editation/

Tom Bisio's link

Activate the energies of Heaven and Earth inside the body
Daoist Ba Gua Circle Walking Meditation is an “Inner Alchemy” practice that opens the body’s energy gates, guiding you into a deep meditative state as you walk, circle, and turn smoothly and effortlessly.

Smoothly walking in a circle while moving through specific energy-enhancing postures creates a powerful current of internal Qi. Rotating and walking harmonizes the body’s energies with the cyclical, circular movements of the earth, stars, and planets, connecting us to the natural forces of which we are an intricate part.

Linear v circle walking

Many, many years ago I competed in the beginner division of bagua at The Taste of China - the head judge was from a very, very famous martial arts family in China - I played our "linear" form Ying Shou (hard palm) - the head judge immediately called a judge's meeting and proceeded to assert my disqualification on the basis that what I played WAS NOT bagua since it exhibited no circle - after a long discussion among the judge's they voted against the disqualification and the form was indeed bagua - of course the head judge gave me the lowest score, barely above zero - LOL - even with lineage in bagua, there are always a few who never quite get it or have it

Old memories from a distant landscape - that "judge" is still on the circuit