Chen & Yang Tai Chi Jian - Sword forms?

[salcanzonieri]

The Chen and Yang Sabre forms are completely different from each other in every way, as they should be.

But the Chen and Yang Jian Sword forms follow the same order of movements. The Chen version is more elaborate, but still follows the same basic pattern.
The Yang version is obviously abbreviated and simplified, compared to the Chen version.

Yang form is supposed to come from General Li, and he was said to have made it up, introduced to Yang Cheng Fu.

The Chen version is supposed to come from Chen Wangting or earlier, they don't know.

Then since they come from two totally different sources, why is the pattern the same?

Yangs say the Jian form is not Tai Ji, it comes from General LI's mixed background.

Did Chen and General Li get the form from the same source (but they say General Li made it up)?

The standard chen version:


The standard yang version;

[wayne hansen]

Or the Chen version is just the yang version with extra repiticion of the foot steps
Is there any old drawings or writings on the Chen form before the yang became famous

[salcanzonieri]

The only thing that I can find is that the Jian form wasn't heard of until 1928, when the first small book on the Taijiquan double edged straight sword (Jian) form was published: The Taiji Sword. It's author, Chen Weiming 陳微明 (real name: Chen Zengze 陳曾則) (1881-1958) studied with Sun Lu Tang, and with General Li Jing Lin (Fang Chen) (1885-1931), a Wudang sword master. Chen said that Yang Cheng Fu never taught a sword form, even though he attributed the sword book to Yang TJQ.

No mention is made of a Jian form in any Chen family material, they only list a broadsword (Dao) form, staff forms, Plum Spear forms, etc.
Today, the Chens say that there are two single sword forms; 49 movements and 54 moments. This is the 49 movements form, the "normal" form that is taught. The 54 movements form was re-created by Chen Zi Qiang after his research uncovered a magazine of Chen Fa Ke's daughter performing the 54 movement sword form.
they give no info on the original source of the Jian form.

So, Chen Jian form is a modern addition?

The Wu style Jian form, whose movements come from the sword practice of the Manchurian Guard, look and act nothing like the Chen/Yang form.

Yang Lu Chan was never said to have practiced a Jian form, only the Sabre and the Staff.
Neither of his sons practiced a Jian form.

So, Chen Weiming is the source, or his book, of the Tai Chi Jian form?

[wayne hansen]

What about the story of Ban Hous daughters death after an accident with the spear
And ban hou cutting all the spear heads off
The story of ban Hao fighting the swordsman with a calligraphy brush I thought he used sword methods to win

[salcanzonieri]

Hmm, well it could have been the Dao sword, the one that was used back then was long and thin, one cutting edge (as opposed to the Jian, which only the tip is sharp).
Nothing like the hacking broadswords used now.


This interview basically shows that most of the Chen weapon forms are modern creations or re=creations.
https://www.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=1428

[Graculus]

It seems pretty clear that the Chen style did not have this form until quite recently. On one online discussion it was mooted that the first appearance was in 1982. There is a b&w video of Lei Muni (student of Chen Fake) doing a Jian form, but I don't know the date - it could be earlier than 1982 (and I haven't checked to see if it's the same form), but he looks quite old (died in 1986) so maybe 1982 is right. As far as I know, the older Chen schools in Taiwan don't have weapon forms.

Li Jinglin apparently had a system but no long form (taolu), so what he taught to Chen Weiming was put together from the exercises of his system rather than 'made up' in the negative sense of the term. Someone mentioned on the Jian vs Dao thread, that Yang Jianhou had a different Jian form from what is commonly taught now.

@Wayne, I think it is quite possible that various systems/families used weapons for which they had no taolu, especially if they were teaching within the family (I have seen this myself): with a good understanding of your art and the important principles/differences of various weapons, the taolu are not so important. several members of the Chen family were known for weapon use (including pistol in one case) but these forms don't appear to have been passed on by Chen Fake.

Graculus
https://www.ichijoji.blogspot.com

[Steve James]

Forms are developed as ways to practice the basic movements. How they're organized isn't irrelevant, but isn't important as long as the fundamental elements are there. The people who thought up the movements were those who actually used them. General Li didn't invent 'point,' 'chop,' or 'thrust.' The most effective methods had been learned soon after the weapons were developed.

Yeah, the Wu form differs from the Yang and Chen forms, but the Shaolin jian form is going to have similar movements -because the weapon is going to be the deciding factor. At least, when it comes to taking advantage of its most effective qualities.

Maybe because firearms had eclipsed jian by Li's time, the jian taolu were developed as another means of cultural preservation. It was part of the same movement that enshrined tcc as a pearl of Chinese culture. After all, Confucius always carried a jian. Martial arts practiced by the lower classes wouldn't have practiced much with weapons they wouldn't use. So, the resurgence of the jian came at the point when they were essentially unnecessary but symbolic. Just speculation.

[origami_itto]

Yang Lu Chan was never said to have practiced a Jian form, only the Sabre and the Staff.
Neither of his sons practiced a Jian form.

So, Chen Weiming is the source, or his book, of the Tai Chi Jian form?

He was reknowned for his spear skills, even had a couple documented party tricks with them.

What about the story of Ban Hous daughters death after an accident with the spear
And ban hou cutting all the spear heads off
The story of ban Hao fighting the swordsman with a calligraphy brush I thought he used sword methods to win

Could use spear techniques just as easily. I don't really think there's a strong case for the jian to be associated directly with the family syllabus till Yang Cheng Fu.

[wayne hansen]

Spear techniques with a calligraphy brush
I would like to see that

[origami_itto]

Spear techniques with a calligraphy brush
I would like to see that

Well I mean I'd like to see somebody use a calligraphy brush to beat a swordsman, period, if we want to start being incredulous.

But no reason you can't parry based on spear one handed as easily as you can based on sword. In fact the nature of spear techniques, being that you're using a round wooden weapon to deal with edged blades makes a lot more sense translated to something like a large calligraphy brush than sword techniques based on avoiding the blade, slicing, and stabbing.

[nicklinjm]

Getting back to the original topic, the Chen style jian practiced by Hong Junsheng's students is directly from Chen Fake's daughter Chen Yuxia, who learnt it from her father in the 1930s. So it's almost certain that Chen Fake himself did practice a jian form, i.e. that particular form is not a recent invention. Not sure how the Hong branch jian form relates to that practiced in current Chen village.......

[GrahamB]

Getting back to the original topic, the Chen style jian practiced by Hong Junsheng's students is directly from Chen Fake's daughter Chen Yuxia, who learnt it from her father in the 1930s. So it's almost certain that Chen Fake himself did practice a jian form, i.e. that particular form is not a recent invention. Not sure how the Hong branch jian form relates to that practiced in current Chen village.......

So, what you're saying is there's no record of a Chen jian form until they came to Beijing where the Yang (and Wu?) family were teaching?... how curious

[salcanzonieri]

hmm, the Chen version is more like the 1928 book sword form than the Yang version, which is not as fluid as the book.

So, Chen FaKe's daughter learned it in the 1930s and no one had ever seen it before it was shown in WuLin magazine, decades later.
And then it was introduced into Chen curriculum.

Hence, it can be seen that the Yang and Chen Jian forms are the same form, and the same as the 1928 book.

Chen doing Wudang? Ha.

[Trick]

hmm, the Chen version is more like the 1928 book sword form than the Yang version, which is not as fluid as the book.

So, Chen FaKe's daughter learned it in the 1930s and no one had ever seen it before it was shown in WuLin magazine, decades later.
And then it was introduced into Chen curriculum.

Hence, it can be seen that the Yang and Chen Jian forms are the same form, and the same as the 1928 book.

Chen doing Wudang? Ha.

Fluid as the book ? How can one see a forms fluidity out of a book ?
Anyway the sword/jian is supposed to be somewhat more fluidly practiced than chop chop chop.

[Trick]

Isn’t it said that CFK did not immediately begin to teach when he arrived in Beijing, that he took quite some time hanging around observing the martial arts community at first….time enough to figure out a specific flavor of what he eventually was going to teach ?