Chen & Yang Tai Chi Jian - Sword forms?

[Bao]

Why would CFK feel the need to check out "a specific flavor" if he planned to take over the Tai Chi scene in Beijing when YCF moved to Shanghai? Maybe it would have made sense if we didn't have the Tai Chi and Chenjiagou village connection between him and YCF. When he went to Beijing, he adjusted whatever he already knew, to attract YCF's students there.

[origami_itto]

Getting back to the original topic, the Chen style jian practiced by Hong Junsheng's students is directly from Chen Fake's daughter Chen Yuxia, who learnt it from her father in the 1930s. So it's almost certain that Chen Fake himself did practice a jian form, i.e. that particular form is not a recent invention. Not sure how the Hong branch jian form relates to that practiced in current Chen village.......

So, what you're saying is there's no record of a Chen jian form until they came to Beijing where the Yang (and Wu?) family were teaching?... how curious

Wasn't that around the time they first started mentioning "Chen Style Tai Chi"... about 50 years after the Yangs wrote down that their style was called Taijiquan?

[GrahamB]

I don't know or care really, these days (I like Nabil's attitude to that) but nobody anywhere (absolutely nobody) mentioned "Tai Chi Chun" before 1912 as far as I can see - one of the Ching Emperors had chosen the name as something like "Tai Chi Emperor" and that meant nobody else was allowed to use it, on pain of death.

Every mention we have of Tai Chi Chuan happened after the fall of the Ching Dynasty when the name "Tai Chi" was back on the market.

And it is a market - this is all marketing - people branding their product different to sell. Let's not lose sight of that.

There are written references to "Tai Chi Boxing" that are dated older, but none of these saw the light of day before 1912, so take them all with a pinch of salt. (From a salt cellar).

[origami_itto]

I don't know or care really, these days (I like Nabil's attitude to that) but nobody anywhere (absolutely nobody) mentioned "Tai Chi Chun" before 1912 as far as I can see - one of the Ching Emperors had chosen the name as something like "Tai Chi Emperor" and that meant nobody else was allowed to use it, on pain of death.

Every mention we have of Tai Chi Chuan happened after the fall of the Ching Dynasty when the name "Tai Chi" was back on the market.

And it is a market - this is all marketing - people branding their product different to sell. Let's not lose sight of that.

There are written references to "Tai Chi Boxing" that are dated older, but none of these saw the light of day before 1912, so take them all with a pinch of salt. (From a salt cellar).

Is there any valid grounds to contest this document?
https://brennantranslation.wordpress.co ... i-fa-shuo/

此書乃先祖吳全佑府君拜門後由斑侯先師所授是於端芳親王府內抄本在我家已一百多年公藻在童年時即保存到如今
吳公藻識
After my grandfather Wu Quanyou became a formal disciple, Yang Banhou gave him this manual. It is a handwritten manuscript that was made in Duan Fang’s royal mansion. It has been in our family for over a hundred years. I have preserved it up to now since my childhood.
– comment by Wu Gongzao

Yang Banhou - 1837-1890
Wu Quanyou - 1834-1902

[This Yang family manuscript exists in two versions, placed side by side below. The pages on the left are the version owned by the Wu family, first shared publicly in its entirety in 1985, and the black & white photocopies on the right are of the version owned by the Yang family itself, first shared publicly in 1993. (Only the Wu family’s version is titled and has a cover, intro, and personal stamps.)
To date these documents, all we really have to go on is Wu Gongzao’s comment of “more than a hundred years”. But when did he scribble his introductory note? The Wu family’s document was included as an extra section for a 1985 reprint of Wu Gongzao’s 1935 manual, but Wu Gongzao had died in 1983, leaving the reprint to be published posthumously. Going by Jin Yong’s postscript to the reprint – dated Jan, 1980 – we are probably safe in assuming the reprint version of the book was already in preparation in 1979 and that Wu Gongzao’s introductory note was made around that time. And if we then assume Wu Gongzao was being accurate when he said “more than a hundred years”, the manuscript would be from no later than 1878. Yang Luchan, Wu Quanyou’s first teacher, passed away in 1872. The manuscript probably cannot be from any earlier than that or Wu Gongzao would more likely have been told that Yang Luchan was to be credited as well as Yang Banhou. It is even possible that the loss of Yang Luchan may itself have served as a motivator for preserving Yang family teachings and that his passing pushed the manuscript into being. Making a simple compromise between the two dates of 1872 and 1878, I will provisionally guess that the manuscript is from the thereabouts of 1875.

Seems like a pretty strong case.

[GrahamB]

You’re missing the point - not published or made public before 1912 is the point. It’s hard to imagine people doing Yang style before 1912 were calling it tai chi boxing. But as soon as the name was available they snapped it up

[GrahamB]

Click on the link and you can see that document appears on the 1940s.

[Steve James]

There might also be a difference between what Yang family people called their art and what people in general called it. I red a long time ago that some people called it chang chuan (long boxing). And there was also the name shi san shi. These might be also be the same thing described differently.

At any rate, the initial date of publication of necessity has to be later than the term was used. Tai chi, as Graham pointed out, is far older. There was probably a reason for it to be adopted, but it's a bit like asking why bagua was called bagua. Some scholarly types were probably involved in that decision too, no?

[origami_itto]

Click on the link and you can see that document appears on the 1940s.

No the 1948 Stamp shows a change of ownership from Wu Gongzao to Li Duo to pay a debt. Li Duo returned the book later.

It was not made public in any form until 1985.

In 1993, a second copy written in the same handwriting was made public by the Yang family.

It's hard to imagine the Chen family calling their stuff Taijiquan till after the Yangs popularized it.

[robert]

It's hard to imagine the Chen family calling their stuff Taijiquan till after the Yangs popularized it.

And yet Chen Xin's book is titled The Illustrated Canon of Chen Family Taijiquan and taijiquan is used throughout the book. It was written 1910-1920 and publish around 1930. Tang Hao suggests that it's possible that Wang Zongyue learned taijiquan in Chen village, if that's the case he may have introduced the name around 1791. Some people say that Wu Yuxiang wrote the taiji classics. He went to Chen village to study and ended up next door in Zhaobao village. It's possible he introduced the name to Chen village.

[Trick]

“Taiji” was what other attributed the boxing of the Yang family in the same manner those other applied “invincible ” to Yang Luchan . Other masters had similar fate.

[Bao]

And yet Chen Xin's book is titled The Illustrated Canon of Chen Family Taijiquan and taijiquan is used throughout the book. It was written 1910-1920 and publish around 1930. Tang Hao suggests that it's possible that Wang Zongyue learned taijiquan in Chen village, if that's the case he may have introduced the name around 1791.

The book was published posthumously and it was changed a lot, and he probably even didn't use "Tai Chi Chuan." In fact, he didn't intend it to be specifically about Chen Style. Not even about Tai Chi only, but about concepts in Chinese internal martial arts generally.

Some people say that Wu Yuxiang wrote the taiji classics. He went to Chen village to study and ended up next door in Zhaobao village. It's possible he introduced the name to Chen village.

"Tai Chi classics" is a new name. Tai Chi Chuan is not even mentioned but referred to as "Changquan" or "Long Boxing" in the text.

[yeniseri]

The only form I remember is the 32 jian form from 40 years ago that I have been playing for that length of time!
I learnt a pattern called Liuhejian, an original taijijian pattern said to be from Yang family, a wushujian pattern and the 32 (jian) pattern!

I have noticed that they all follow a sequence and pattern though expressed in different modes of transitioning between low/high,
expansion/contraction/open/close. An excellent reference is the video that shows how Chen and Yangshitaijiquan are different, side by side
they show a 'semblance' of sameness despite the physical representation of movement expression. Jian (straight sword) is the same way!.

As I get older, stuff starts dropping off (memory wise)

[wayne hansen]

First time I saw the Chen Jian form I thought it was just the yang using 3 steps where yang uses one
I’m sure when they were training the name and concept of tai chi came up on occasions but was just part of the vernacular
If you are riding a horse you don’t mention it’s name all the time
Bruce Lee wished he never gave a name to his art
People who see me training often ask me what I am doing
It is hard to give it a name for it is not what most people think tai chi is
However to say it is not tai chi would not recognise a line of people who passed it down under that name
The Yang Family have recently put in place a grading system that locks the doors to those that would call their art Yang Family Tai Chi
Perhaps some who are not Yang Family are more Tai Chi taught thru the Yang Family than those in the Blood line
Fu and Tung come to mind yet they may be less Yang Family and more Tai Chi taught by the yang family
I remember talking to a teacher of mine I mentioned his Chinese students
He said .. you Chinese they not Chinese
I took what he was saying was a confirmation to my method of living and learning
This is not a brag but a nice memory and a lesson learned

[origami_itto]

This is not a brag

Whatever you say, sweetie, all the teachers love you best, we know.

[wayne hansen]

Yes each teacher I have had I have been his favorite student
No brag just fact
Obsession and Transference
You don’t want to be mentioned but chase it with your off point remarks
As CMC said I am a Bell the harder you strike it the louder the sound