Kyuzo Mifune showing judo sd techniques

[yusuf]

I always hope the the videos of tokimune takeda are just him not showing the real deal to the world....

[WVMark]

I always hope the the videos of tokimune takeda are just him not showing the real deal to the world....

Tokimune is quoted as telling Kondo *NOT* to show the real techniques to everyone. So, it sort of follows that Tokimune himself wouldn't. (Way off topic.)

[GrahamB]

Again, the internal skills being discussed here are a discrete skill set that must be specifically learned and inculcated. Mifune had to have met someone who provided his training, likely outside of the judo dojo. A number of martial artists who became famous as having internal skills, received those skills outside the formal system in which they were training and were high-ranked in.

I think he was just probably very good at Judo after a lifetime of practice. No need to make it all mysterious.

[Interloper]

I always hope the the videos of tokimune takeda are just him not showing the real deal to the world....

For one thing, I wouldn't compare offspring to parent; often,there is no comparison to be made. Sons don't always display the same gifts as the fathers. Just sayin'.

Along another line, interestingly, Tokimune was quoted by Katsuyuki Kondo, current head of the (mainline) Daito-ryu, as ordering him not to teach the "true" methods to anyone ... even within Daito-ryu! Things that make you go "Hmmmm."

Quoted from Aikido Journal Online:

The Daitokan Dojo in Hokkaido would hold a yearly training event for all Daito-Ryu Dojo in Japan. I would teach one group, and Tokimune would teach the other. The night before, I would ask him if I could teach the correct way of doing the techniques instead of not letting them know the right way. Tokimune would say, "No, teach it so they will not know or understand the right way of the techniques."
-- Katsuyuki Kondo

So, I wouldn't be surprised if Tokimune wouldn't be teaching anything "special" on film or video. As for the demo videos out there, from what I've seen of formal Daito-ryu, it appears pretty overdone with a lot of very ritualized kata and no opportunity to learn to mix it up in any realistic street kinda way. Anything internal Tokimune might be doing is kind of lost in the distraction of those over-the-top one-step sparring routines.

Mifune, on the other hand, is being himself, doing -his- judo with internal structure and power he has made his own as well.

[Interloper]

Again, the internal skills being discussed here are a discrete skill set that must be specifically learned and inculcated. Mifune had to have met someone who provided his training, likely outside of the judo dojo. A number of martial artists who became famous as having internal skills, received those skills outside the formal system in which they were training and were high-ranked in.

I think he was just probably very good at Judo after a lifetime of practice. No need to make it all mysterious.

{Ronald Reagan Voice} Oh, there you go again, Graham! {/Ronald Reagan Voice}

[WVMark]

In the first vid posted, check out 0:3-31. Notice that Mifune brings his right leg around the guy. But, take a closer look. He doesn't hook it or latch it on the guy. The only point of contact is the hip area. Mifune's leg just sort of goes around to the front, but not for support and not to affect the guy in any way. check out Mifune's left hand. He doesn't have any grip at all right as his feet touch the ground, nor does his right hand. Yet, the guy literally gets spun out from Mifune.

At 0:39-0:41, the guy gets spun again, this time 180 degrees. Watch the guy's bottom half sort of kick out. Mifune doesn't appear to do anything but land.

At 1:02-1:03, watch uke. Watch the back leg come forward. Looks like Mifune weighted him to the right side. And Mifune does it when his left hand touches uke's wrist. Uke is just catching up to what Mifune's already done. Mifune's ahead of him by the time the back leg plants and uke's front leg goes back a step. Mifune's already dropping, so the right leg doesn't go back far. It can't, it doesn't have enough time. Now, watch the left hand go out just a bit and then shoot towards the right hand (not up). That hand matches what's happening. Initially uke gets weighted on the right side, so the left arm goes out for balance. Then when the energy shifts, the arm flies inward. Mifune is doing this all from contact at the wrist. He has total control way before uke's body takes the breakfall. Uke's body is just playing catchup to what Mifune has done through IMA skills. IMO, anyway.

[GrahamB]

Again, the internal skills being discussed here are a discrete skill set that must be specifically learned and inculcated. Mifune had to have met someone who provided his training, likely outside of the judo dojo. A number of martial artists who became famous as having internal skills, received those skills outside the formal system in which they were training and were high-ranked in.

I think he was just probably very good at Judo after a lifetime of practice. No need to make it all mysterious.

{Ronald Reagan Voice} Oh, there you go again, Graham! {/Ronald Reagan Voice}

Yup. There I go again. Guess I must be some sort of crazy. There's a clip of John Wang (at least it's on his server somewhere - I think it's him in the clip too) doing the same thing as Mifune in this clip - somebody tries to throw him and he just holds onto them and they can't throw him. Looks just like this Mifune clip. No internal skills are claimed.

[Brady]

Sometimes these internal debates really frustrate me, especially when it comes to my precious Judo! If people are stipulating that Mifune never did solo training in which he focused on connections and framework within his body, or never did work with fined tune manipulation of contact points . . . then I'd say these people are crazy.

[GrahamB]

No internal skills are claimed.

Just because a claim of internal skills is not being made doesn't mean they are not being demonstrated.

Hmmm somebody needs to tell Mr Wang he's internal, I don't think he knows!

[cloudz]

Sometimes these internal debates really frustrate me, especially when it comes to my precious Judo! If people are stipulating that Mifune never did solo training in which he focused on connections and framework within his body,

i don't think that's far fetched at all! i would be amazed if he didn't exercise. But you can focus on connections and framework in all manner of exercises wouldn't you say - including what your avarege judoka practices/ practiced. ?

or never did work with fined tune manipulation of contact points . . . then I'd say these people are crazy.

like he would practice in randori right?

I see that 'making himself heavy thing he does. Neither is it a difficult thing in itself to do or learn. it's very cool to use it as he does - his use of it is the real skill being shown. But I'd dispute whether his skills must require

Again, the internal skills being discussed here are a discrete skill set that must be specifically learned and inculcated. Mifune had to have met someone who provided his training, likely outside of the judo dojo.

I don't have a problem actually filing that skill under "internal", but not everyone will see it that way.

it also begs the question why someone like Mifune wasn't passing it on to his students. I mean I don't think they would have to be geniuses to work out some things he was doing - such as making himself heavy.

Did they not ask, did they not try to emulate. etc. ? that part doesn't make a lot of sense. The claim I bolded is as yet unproven to be anymore than a hypothesis. Anyone who knows soccer say will describe a player like Maradona as have almost divine skills.. WV Mark made this description:

When I look at Mifune in certain vids, he does things that you do *not* see any other judoka doing. Even older judoka.

also

The vids of Mifune are full of this kind of stuff. Then go watch "normal" judoka in the same kind of situation. Never looks the same.

Let me fix that.

When I look at Maradona in certain vids, he does things that you do *not* see any other footballer doing. Even older footballers.

The vids of Maradona are full of this kind of stuff. Then go watch "normal"footballer in the same kind of situation. Never looks the same.

This has no significance whatsover other than he was a natural born genius at playing football. We can simply conclude that Mifune simply had a 'talent for the game' (of Judo). Add to that these vids are of him as a very experience player against his inexperienced students.

Anyone who know the game, knows what kind of skill Maradona could display. clearly he had control of his body and ways of moving it and a certain condition to do so - must have right? thousands upon thousands of others "normal" players could barely dream of matching such skills in a million years. Yet when would you ever hear this description made.

"a discrete skill set that must be specifically learned and inculcated".

Maradona could teach for " a million years"and perhaps never coach someone to play how he played and do the things he did/ could do..

same goes for any legendary fighter/ sportsman i think.

A lot of people such as this are unique and gifted in their own way ( and it comes from inside..). Let's not at least take that away from Mifune!

Example: Do we believe we can come up with a special set of exercises that could make joe bloggs drive a formula 1 car like Lewis Hamilton?

[middleway]

Well said Cloudz!

I always hope the the videos of tokimune takeda are just him not showing the real deal to the world....

Yeh i am reliably informed he was a bad ass, just like his dad ... but wasn't a fan of publicity.

cheers
Chris

[Bodywork]

It is appropriate to say that any *one* guy may not be able to teach it-not all. And not all are willing.
The MA as well as others venues involving physical movement are full of people who can do- but whose students are lackluster. But this idea of not being able to teach it as a definable skill is simply hogwash. I'll only speak for myself I have never....ever... had a student whose power did not jump, whose ability to withstand throw attempts and locks did not improve measurably-hell most would say dramatically once they begin training what we do here. More important is that I am not alone and that there are others who can teach it and I would bet many of which are far…far better at it then my measly skills. Which means as a definable skill- outside of technique- it is there to be had. It has always been teachable.

Again I would stress that if you talk to some people from that era who were living and training with some of the living legends -most were just teaching X,Y,Z art and answering questions about that art. Some very accomplished Judoka laughed in the face of those who talked about internal or aiki until a couple of them got their asses handed to them by something they could not understand, and they were smart enough to know there was something else going on other than muscle.

Brady
I'm confused by your post, bud. I think my two posts were pretty clear that some of this stuff was known to Judoka and I gave some examples. I just suggest it was not the norm nor learned through what your are assuming was just more good Judo training.
I also asked the question "Why was the *reward* or thank you that Kano chose to offer in return for a large cash donation not moe Judo training? Eh? What that?
WHay was intead to bring the guy to meet and train with someone who did internal training (aikijujutsu)? Why? Because internal training was considered different, special and OUTSIDE of the typical Judo syllabus. And as the aikijujutsu guy told the occidental when they were done training. "No it is not well known and few practice it anymore." And this was -mind you- in Japan alomst hundred years ago. Today? Uhm...good luck.
There were other arts, in Japan that had internal training exercises and practices in their own written densho or scrolls as well and who had art specific “ways” to use the enhanced sensitivity and power it conveyed to an adept. Mifune is not the best exponent of internals. In his day Takeda was a giant over Mifune. What Mifune did in competition, Takeda did in real life, and Mifune’s accomplishments at their highest levels paled in comparison to Takeda’s documented year-by-year exploits.
Hope to see ya soon

_________________________________________________________________

To the detractors
And to remain with Judo for a bit
To answer the critics who scoff at the notion of internal training as *nothing different" in Judo Or that it’s all about learning structure through technique and that’s all it is?
1. How is it that Kano's kid could have and indeed chose to definitively discuss the matter with the Englishman as a separate topic outside of Judo? Why a different discussion? 2. Why did he send him-outside of the Kodokan to see it and feel it?
2. Why would that be needed if it were “Just more of the same” they already taught?
3. Why did he mention the other Judoka he knew who trained it and was undefeatable in competition?
4. Again, Why was the introduction to see and learn it considered a gift to the man who had been training in judo for years back in its hay day in the early 1900’s
Why?
Because they…unlike you… knew that it did exist as a separate study!
And were you training there at the time…you like most all the other young Johnies
1. Would never have known.
2. Would never have been shown.
3. And you would forever be just another one of the boys working on your waza.

But whatever works for you
Dan

[cloudz]

Dan, you may be taking some of this the wrong way. It's not that i or even "we" don't think there are exercises that have these effects on peoples development. Just that they won't make everyone a world beater or invincible like the guy you mention. There are way to many factors involved for it to work like that i think.

Do you think I didn't have benefits in power and movement by taking up IMA practices - I sure did, as I know Chris has etc. i'm sure we're not alone. I felt things from Chris (middleway) that bamboozled me when I started training with him quite some time back. I've felt internal power from a teacher we both trained with that was like nothing I've felt anywhere

These people can and do teach definable skills. And no one is saying this is not what you or others do. However knowing such definable skills or finding them in exercises, testing and applying them in pre arranged settings is still a heck of a long way from using them effectively against other well trained people in full speed combat. As well it remains to be seen exactly how advantageous such subtle skills would be. How many times have you seen the more skillfull combatant lose or the more powerful one?. It is not always the better skilled that wins is it or the strongest? That they offer some advantages sometimes isn't in dispute.



But as you know subtler skills on their own are not adequate. you need everything else in place and that will make them 'the icing on the cake'. that's how I basically see it.

Only the exceptional people will have the full package with the icing on top. This skillset on it's own won't make an exceptional fighter, though it might give the exceptional fighter - icing on the cake.

Anyone who undergoes training they have not done before, get's something out of it. whatever that training might be. Different training, provides different attributes or enhancements to people. They can all be seen as valuable or important in different ways / in their own ways.

If i went to a boxing gym having only ever done TKD, my guess is after six weeks training a lot would change for the better. I've heard many a testimony from typically the karate guy who felt much improved power and movement from good tai ch chuan.

I'll only speak for myself I have never....ever... had a student whose power did not jump, whose ability to withstand throw attempts and locks did not improve measurably-hell most would say dramatically once they begin training what we do here.

I think many martial arts teachers or coaches of combat sports could make that claim and be telling the truth. So why wouldn't I believe you ?

[mixjourneyman]

Hey Tom, can you translate your sig?
Something about meat and fire?
The Chinese version of "Meat Fire Good!"?

[Brady]

Dan,
I hear what you are saying, and think that at Mifune's time the type of training to gain these skills was probably slightly more available than it is now. I was saying that Mifune probably DID train alot different than your average Judoka does today or in his time. Whether or not this was because of his inherent genius (unlikely) or because he was exposed to some methods (more likely) probably never will be known. But I'm with you on the fact that he had to have some sort of unique tricks up his bag.
And I never knew Mifune and Takeda were in their prime around the same time, thats interesting. And I'm still hoping to swing through tomorrow, barring any reschedules tonight at work.
-Brady