Kyuzo Mifune showing judo sd techniques

[Bodywork]

Dan, you may be taking some of this the wrong way. It's not that i or even "we" don't think there are exercises that have these effects on peoples development. Just that they won't make everyone a world beater or invincible like the guy you mention. There are way to many factors involved for it to work like that i think.

Do you think I didn't have benefits in power and movement by taking up IMA practices - I sure did, as I know Chris has etc. i'm sure we're not alone. I felt things from Chris (middleway) that bamboozled me when I started training with him quite some time back. I've felt internal power from a teacher we both trained with that was like nothing I've felt anywhere

These people can and do teach definable skills. And no one is saying this is not what you or others do. However knowing such definable skills or finding them in exercises, testing and applying them in pre arranged settings is still a heck of a long way from using them effectively against other well trained people in full speed combat. As well it remains to be seen exactly how advantageous such subtle skills would be. How many times have you seen the more skillfull combatant lose or the more powerful one?. It is not always the better skilled that wins is it or the strongest? That they offer some advantages sometimes isn't in dispute.

But as you know subtler skills on their own are not adequate. you need everything else in place and that will make them 'the icing on the cake'. that's how I basically see it.
Only the exceptional people will have the full package with the icing on top. This skillset on it's own won't make an exceptional fighter, though it might give the exceptional fighter - icing on the cake.

I don't know your name so I'll have to call you mister clouds

One of us may have their heads in the clouds...uhm...that wouldn't be me. Just a joke- don't go crazy on me now.
Who’s talking about subtle skills beside you? This notion of subtle skills and use of these "questionable things" in banging and rolling I have all heard before. In the fullness of time- face to face- the debates magically end. Know why? It has nothing to do with waza. You either get it or you don't and it is rather obvious when you meet, it is known in an instant when you play. If you are training "subtle skills" that you or your teachers have trouble with in grapping I'd suggest quitting. In either case you're simply not talking about what I am doing or talking about. In fact calling them *skills* at all tells me all I need to know about where you are coming from- AND THAT just doesn't interest me.

Internal conditioning and grappling
I’d bet you have trouble understanding when I discuss internal conditioning and grappling and how the two work together. Why? I “think” you, form a framework in your own head of all *you* know and have seen and then assign that to me. Case in point: relating me to what you felt with Chris's teacher and these “subtle waza” uses. Leave me out of it please. Think of what I chose to do more in terms of what works playing with various grapplers who want to trash the shit out of you and who would spit on the floor if you even mentioned aiki and you might be closer to the question of my idea of "use."
Subtle training? Small circle aiki shit? Wrist grabs? That Frankenstein overly stretched, stiff and overly complex single and multiple step uke "pretzel logic" they try to pawn as good jujutsu? You got the wrong guy. I prefer stuff that works on people (who actually know *how*) fighting back. "Subtle techniques that may not work" is anathema to me. I'd rather watch paint dry.
What I -do-train is changing the way your body moves and connects to itself and others . And how that permanently changes the way it feels and reacts, changes and manages forces and generates power. Then learning to move *that* body that has some interesting effect in...........real fighting that humans do. The only difference then becomes how you choose to fight with it and how well you can fight.
Whatever works for you.
Dan

[cloudz]

Dan, you may be taking some of this the wrong way. It's not that i or even "we" don't think there are exercises that have these effects on peoples development. Just that they won't make everyone a world beater or invincible like the guy you mention. There are way to many factors involved for it to work like that i think.

Do you think I didn't have benefits in power and movement by taking up IMA practices - I sure did, as I know Chris has etc. i'm sure we're not alone. I felt things from Chris (middleway) that bamboozled me when I started training with him quite some time back. I've felt internal power from a teacher we both trained with that was like nothing I've felt anywhere

These people can and do teach definable skills. And no one is saying this is not what you or others do. However knowing such definable skills or finding them in exercises, testing and applying them in pre arranged settings is still a heck of a long way from using them effectively against other well trained people in full speed combat. As well it remains to be seen exactly how advantageous such subtle skills would be. How many times have you seen the more skillfull combatant lose or the more powerful one?. It is not always the better skilled that wins is it or the strongest? That they offer some advantages sometimes isn't in dispute.

But as you know subtler skills on their own are not adequate. you need everything else in place and that will make them 'the icing on the cake'. that's how I basically see it.
Only the exceptional people will have the full package with the icing on top. This skillset on it's own won't make an exceptional fighter, though it might give the exceptional fighter - icing on the cake.

I don't know your name so I'll have to call you mister clouds

One of us may have their heads in the clouds...uhm...that wouldn't be me. Just a joke- don't go crazy on me now.
Who’s talking about subtle skills beside you? This notion of subtle skills and use of these "questionable things" in banging and rolling I have all heard before. In the fullness of time- face to face- the debates magically end. Know why? It has nothing to do with waza. You either get it or you don't and it is rather obvious when you meet, it is known in an instant when you play. If you are training "subtle skills" that you or your teachers have trouble with in grapping I'd suggest quitting. In either case you're simply not talking about what I am doing or talking about. In fact calling them *skills* at all tells me all I need to know about where you are coming from- AND THAT just doesn't interest me.

Internal conditioning and grappling
I’d bet you have trouble understanding when I discuss internal conditioning and grappling and how the two work together. Why? I “think” you, form a framework in your own head of all *you* know and have seen and then assign that to me. Case in point: relating me to what you felt with Chris's teacher and these “subtle waza” uses. Leave me out of it please. Think of what I chose to do more in terms of what works playing with various grapplers who want to trash the shit out of you and who would spit on the floor if you even mentioned aiki and you might be closer to the question of my idea of "use."
Subtle training? Small circle aiki shit? Wrist grabs? That Frankenstein overly stretched, stiff and overly complex single and multiple step uke "pretzel logic" they try to pawn as good jujutsu? You got the wrong guy. I prefer stuff that works on people (who actually know *how*) fighting back. "Subtle techniques that may not work" is anathema to me. I'd rather watch paint dry.
What I -do-train is changing the way your body moves and connects to itself and others . And how that permanently changes the way it feels and reacts, changes and manages forces and generates power. Then learning to move *that* body that has some interesting effect in...........real fighting that humans do. The only difference then becomes how you choose to fight with it and how well you can fight.
Whatever works for you.
Dan

relax Dan, that's exactly the sort of thing I meant by subtle skills - body skills you describe there ate the end . if it wasn't clear you could have just asked. But going by type you just yea, return to type. I have clips of me "fighting like humans do" you can watch anytime on you tube.

But I still can't see them of you. Pot kettle black mate. Until you can demonstrate differences with visuals to support the words, I don't believe you do anything fundementally different to other IMA that spar as well. What you believe or think of me or my training is irrelivent - you can see my level, humble as it is you don't have to imagine it or interperate it from my words.

cheers
george
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wW53KFXU ... annel_page

[GrahamB]

Respects to George for handling that with more class than it perhaps deserved. Well done Sir.

[cloudz]

Cheers G. this sort of exchange is kinda silly, just makes me think to myself "shut up and train!" eh

good times,
best

[mixjourneyman]

Hey Cloudz are you the guy with the shaved head?
If so, you rawk!

[Bodywork]

relax Dan, that's exactly the sort of thing I meant by subtle skills - body skills you describe there ate the end . if it wasn't clear you could have just asked. But going by type you just yea, return to type. I have clips of me "fighting like humans do" you can watch anytime on you tube.

But I still can't see them of you. Pot kettle black mate. Until you can demonstrate differences with visuals to support the words, I don't believe you do anything fundementally different to other IMA that spar as well. What you believe or think of me or my training is irrelivent - you can see my level, humble as it is you don't have to imagine it or interperate it from my words.

cheers
george

I don't want contention. I didn't talk about you or what you can or cannot do...you brought it up, and then made suggestions that because of your own training you understand and know what I do, then went on to call them subtle skills and related that they fail under stress. Curious. And you just did it again saying I can't be doing something you don't know in IMA. Uhm...okay.
None of it fits into a discussion of Mifune but alright. I'm glad you're so sure of your self.
So, you brought it up, I said It can't possibly be how I train since "subtlities in use" have nothing to do with it as an end goal or practice. Lets drop it.

Prior to your interjection about yourself -we were talking about about some historical aspects of Judo and what might have been involved.

Cheers
Dan

[Bodywork]

Dan,
I hear what you are saying, and think that at Mifune's time the type of training to gain these skills was probably slightly more available than it is now. I was saying that Mifune probably DID train alot different than your average Judoka does today or in his time. Whether or not this was because of his inherent genius (unlikely) or because he was exposed to some methods (more likely) probably never will be known. But I'm with you on the fact that he had to have some sort of unique tricks up his bag.
And I never knew Mifune and Takeda were in their prime around the same time, thats interesting. And I'm still hoping to swing through tomorrow, barring any reschedules tonight at work.
-Brady

Brady
By the kids accounts Takeda and Ueshiba knew and had some sort of relationship with Kano. Of what type know one really knows for sure. As I wrote fro one source Ueshiba was known to show up at the kodokan in later years and play. Overal its a mistake to think these Guys made their stuff public. The Yaguy school was another great example. There was all this internal training and not only did the public not know, many or most of the guys stopped training it and opted to just train technique. How that related in the modern era is anyones guess. Finding out Don Draeger not only felt was thrown and and was impressed with Wang Chu shin but went on to train with him yet never talked about it gives one pause as to just what and who these guys went to to get their own stuff.
One Senior DR guy stated before he died that your solo training was never talked about. Apparently other budo guys felt the same. The guy who talked to me about Don and Wang. He told the story of some of the meet ups. I said if you guys were so impressed why didn't you train with him and do solo work. To which he said "We did..for years." Me...speachless asked how come know one knows that. He said I was the first one to have ever asked."
Old budo guys.....grumble.......
Hope you can make it tomm. though it's just going to be conditioning- I have some visitors coming.
Cheers
Dan

[Interloper]

No other high-ranking judoka was demonstrating skills like Mifune had. To my eye (and I'm not a judoka), Mifune is qualitatively different in how he responds. I think there is an internal basis for that qualitative difference.

(small snippage)

Going back to Mifune, this is the meat of the matter, IMO --- that he was not typical of any other judoka. Now, of all the many, many judoka who have come and gone in the world over the last 100 years, is it not a bit odd that only one man was known to be able to do what Mifune did? If there were certain skills inherent in judo, don't we think that more than one person would have acquired a reasonable grasp of them, so that we might have at least a couple dozen "Mifunes" over time?

My suggestion is that you pull up clips of last year's Beijing Olympic judo matches and watch the "Creme de la creme" of the world's amateur judo athletes competing. Or if you'd rather, pull out some video clips of more traditional judoka from Japanese dojo. Then watch the Mifune clips again. And read WVMark's picking-out of all the out-of-the-ordinary things Mifune is doing in those two clips (Holy cow, WVMark! Did you do a freeze frame on every second of video to pick out every freakin' move he was making?! Good eyes!). Maybe you'll be able to make out some distinction that made Mifune's judo unlike that of any other judoka's. And it wasn't that he was the world's most gifted athlete, ever. He had an extra "something" that gave him a different tool kit, beyond that of the typical judo waza and conditioning that everyone else had.

Judo is not Rocket Science, it's a pretty well-known martial art/sport with a known set of moves, drills, kata, techniques that are learnable and knowable to just about anyone who endeavors in the discipline. What are the odds that only one man could every truly "master" it? Even if there is a schism on this forum between those who think of IMA as one thing, and those who think of it as another, I don't believe it's a huge stretch to determine that Mifune had something in addition to judo waza and training that made -his- judo of a level others have not reached. That something was outside conditioning and training in very specific IMA method.

[Formosa Neijia]

No internal skills are claimed.

Just because a claim of internal skills is not being made doesn't mean they are not being demonstrated.

The problem with this is exactly what you see in this thread: people who haven't even bothered to train judo making all sorts of guesses about what's going on in the clip and reading all sorts of stuff into it. The most absurd part is this idea that Mifune just couldn't have gotten these skills from judo because that idea fits with what some people thinks makes them special.

Additionally, what Mifune wrote about his actual training is completely ignored because it doesn't fit with the preconceptions of the people talking.

I've actually trained with people in judo with excellent body skills who can do many subtle things with their judo. ALL of them got 100% of their training from judo and from my interactions with them, I can tell you that many of the concepts that get brought up in threads like these are way off base.

There's little to no understanding of actual judo training in these posts. Just people groping around in the dark.

Dave C.

[D_Glenn]

Graham brought up a good point about 'Shuai Jiao' (chinese throwing style(similar to Judo)): In shuai jiao there are 108 throws and 108 counters to those throws. As was mentioned Mifune is using a lot of typical 'shuai jiao' counters in those clips. I wonder if it's the counters that has been lost in Judo?

.

[Formosa Neijia]

Graham brought up a good point about 'Shuai Jiao' (chinese throwing style(similar to Judo)): In shuai jiao there are 108 throws and 108 counters to those throws. As was mentioned Mifune is using a lot of typical 'shuai jiao' counters in those clips. I wonder if it's the counters that has been lost in Judo?

.

How would you know that anything has been lost in judo? Do you train it?

Dave C.

[D_Glenn]

Graham brought up a good point about 'Shuai Jiao' (chinese throwing style(similar to Judo)): In shuai jiao there are 108 throws and 108 counters to those throws. As was mentioned Mifune is using a lot of typical 'shuai jiao' counters in those clips. I wonder if it's the counters that has been lost in Judo?

.

How would you know that anything has been lost in judo? Do you train it?

Dave C.

Actually I have, here in colorado (due to proximity to the olympic training center) you can go to almost any rec center and train with ex-olympic black belts for practically nothing, but that's besides the point because if you look at my post you'd notice that I phrased that as a question, because I don't know the answer.

I've also done a little bit a shuai jiao and have learned a handful of the counters from day one, which I can easily spot in the clips.

So does Judo teach the counters to their throws? (Please notice the question mark at the end of the sentence.)

.

[Bodywork]

Yes I have since I was a kid and I also used to teach out of a judo dojo that also had seminars with teachers coming in from all over. Which afforded me an opportunity to play with various people. I happen to love Judo. If you want to make a claim now that Judo on the whole as an art is internal like a bunch of other guys keep trying to do- go for it.
At best I have felt some good listening skills and the better guys are more relaxed players relying much more on timing and footwork for entries than muscle.There are guys who know how to relax and flow and push from the ground and wrap and stick to you and also specialists who can seem to make their favorite throw just "happen" in the damnest circumstances but they are not versed in internals either. While on any other day I am a staunch advocate for Judo as an art- and other grappling arts-saying it is internal doesn't do either justice. There are plenty of Judoka -I'd bet the majority- who wouldn't know what the hell you were talking about. Grappling is a great mask for internals, in that you can combine a a quasy-relaxed whole body movement that is not quite flexing, and if you have great listening skills the timing can feel and appear soft, even ghosty like internals. But it's not. Go ahead and knock yourself out though.

I've felt boxers with heavy hands that most likely comes from good structure. But claiming they are "internal" is just over the top. But hey just shortly now, there will be a host of guys to chime in about "internal golders" and "internal baseball player"s and that "any good athlete just must be doing internals."
And to directly answer your question about whats been lost. I dunno where you've been.. senior guys go on ad nauseum about whats been lost. And a few I know will give you a hands on demonstration of Koryu jujutsu, where it changed to Judo and how, and some of it coming from the Judo giants themselves (yes they are older guys) and others of where the internals of either the aiki arts or of the ICMA come into play.
FWIW, a few of others posting here have train(ed) or do train in judo as well.

But I'm not interesting in arguing. If you're happy- than whatever works for you
Dan

[bailewen]

Hey Tom, can you translate your sig?
Something about meat and fire?
The Chinese version of "Meat Fire Good!"?

lol. . . .

Now that was annoying. Made me go searching for a post to find it. It takes a combination of a little guesswork, a little reading of Tom's posts and a little experience reading Taiji classics to make the guesswork . . . work.

My guess is....

Zhong Zheng Ping Rou Qing Ling Yuan Huo

Well I'm on a Mac right now so I can't type in Chinese but it looks like:

zhong zheng - stable and centered
ping - level and balanced
rou - soft
qing - "delecate" (qingqiao?) or maybe just "light" as in "qing-zhong"
ling - agile
yuan - round
huo - lively

[D_Glenn]

輕靈 qingling comes up in the IMA classics in regards to cultivation and after jing to qi to shen you have the capability of 'qingling' which is where- 'not even a feather could land on you without you knowing' or basically 'knowing what the enemy is going to do before they even move'. -fwiw

.