Kyuzo Mifune showing judo sd techniques

[Interloper]

That throw was amazing. Mifune makes me feel hopelessly suckass. I've watched all of his videos ad infinitum. The smoothness and clarity in his movement is brilliant.
J

The cool thing is, though, that the internal body methods he used are tangible and learnable through a regimen of specific exercises to develop the skills. What made Mifune stand so far above the rest in judo, was that so few men other than he ever learned those skills and incorporated them into their judo.

So while it's fine for all of us to feel suckass, we should not feel "hopelessly" suckass. Let's allow that we are currently suckass but hopeful... all the while training the body method. Mifune was -what?- almost 82 when that film was made. So think of all the time you'll have to get your game on before you get to 82. How many people may look at us when we're old geezers and think that they are suckass compared to our smoove and elegant martial selves.

[middleway]

Interloper,

What made Mifune stand so far above the rest in judo, was that so few men other than he ever learned those skills and incorporated them into their judo.

Do you have any information as to what Mifune Learnt above and beyond Kano's Judo?

There is no information i can find on him learning anything but Judo ... and no connection between him and the likes of Shiro Saigo (the famous 'deck stacking' Daito Ryu man that Kano Used in early Judo Bouts ... although his Daito Ryu lineage is questionable at best) ? I guess his initial introduction to Judo was through Sakujiro Yokoyama who was close to Shiro Saigo .... but there is no information about him being taught by Yokoyama .... only that he was a means of introduction to the Kodokan.

Looking for historical Info .... not hear say just cause he was an exceptional Judoka.

Cheers
Chris

[Bodywork]

Hi Chris
As I mentioned in my post in the references to that undefeatable 6th dan Kano's son mentioned in "The fighting spirit of Japan." According to Kano's son ..generally no one knew there was a special training that 6th dan did that caused him to be undefeatable. And to more directly relate to your question about Mifune- Kano's kid didn't tell the English guy from "where" or what art the guy got it! So we can see how in judo his opponents (in Judo)just chalked it up to...more good Judo Internal training was everywhere in Japan and the really good guys knew and trained it in whole or in part. Come to think of it, why did the English guy get a visit to the aikijujutsu guy as "reward" for his large cash donation to the building fund at the kodokan in the first place? Why was it reward or thank you? Because someone, somewhere thought that it was something very special, and to be a cut above “just doing judo.”

Saigo's lineage
you are correct in the fact that his lineage is suspect, but really only in the sense of it not being "provable." Considered another way was his upbringing in Aizu and to one of the teachers of Takeda Chikonori. There is ample written evidence of his skills being so unusual and unstoppable against normal judo waza, that when combined with the one provable link Saigo had to Takeda -that being Chikanori- that would make the training background in Aizu as the link rather obvious.

Looking for causal links to explain phenomenal men in Budo
Here's another interesting thing about internal training in the Japanese arts. Most guys, not some, not many, but most, never wrote in detail about their training.
Another well known figure is Don Draeger. Almost universally discussed as a Judo man, it is rarely known and never discussed that his most memorable experience in fighting and in power we meeting and feeling Wang chu shin, and getting thrown through a wall by him. And even fewer know that he went on to train with Wang. It's never discussed and was never, in all this time written about.
Another more recent event is Ark meeting that Yagyu guy who showed him a series of a internal training regimen he did. The guy prefaced it by asking Ark if he wanted to become powerful? And as I recall the guy stated no one practiced them anymore in the Yagyukai.

So, it’s everywhere, and yet oddly not widely known at all. There, “hidden, in plain site” and only revealed if you get to the right people, who are rare and not open about teaching it. Sagawa (arguable thee best exponent of Daito ryu) stated he would NEVER teach occidentals and was clear as to why. “With their size, it would make them unbeatable. It should be kept secret!”
It gives one pause to consider who is telling us they are openly teaching us..and are all but lying to our faces.
I know some serious heavywheights in the JMA, who are typically identified by this or that art. Many would be surprised to learn of their training histories, that they rarely if ever talk about. What I find most confusing-is that they tell me their own students rarely, if ever ask. They only ask about the single art they are training in.
So the most pertinent facts of a lot of mens training probably died with them or were simply passed along orally if you were smart enough to ask the right questions.

Cheers
Dan

[middleway]

Cheers Dan,

It is argued by the aiki guys that Saigo was brilliant because of aiki, and by the judo guys that he was brilliant cause of Judo lol ... dont think we will ever resolve that!

On the other hand there is ample written evidence of his skills being so unusual and unstoppable against normal judo waza

Can you point me to some of it, most evidence says that his skills were very very good in challenges against other trad JuJutsu schools but he certainly wasn't the exception to the rule at the early Kodokan. He was one of four exceptional figthers.

Shiro Saigo
Tomita Tsunejiro
Yamashita Yoshikazu
Yokoyama Sakujiro

i think ....

The final match was between Saigo and a much larger and more experienced jujutsu master who later became head of Yoshin-ryu jujutsu. It was a match that pitted two very different styles against each other. Saigo lagged the initial 10 minutes of the battle suffering relentless attacks. Frequently Saigo was seemingly overpowered and was thrown up in the air, but he always came down on his feet in a controlled manner. People compared Saigo's movements to that of an agile cat. After 10 minutes Saigo counterattacked, but couldn't end the match. About 15 minutes into the fight Saigo perfectly executed his trademark Yama Arashi, which ended the match with such force that his opponent retired with a concussion.

Sounds like very good Judo to me! but hey we will never know.

Interestingly i learnt an excellent set of solo 'internal' trainings in Daito Ryu ... that were not techniques, they came from Takeda Tokimune to my teacher as far as i am aware. Personally i think they are all still there in some daito ryu lines just not in the public domain.

cheers
Chris

[GrahamB]

Is Judo internal as well?

[Bodywork]

The discussion was of the striking exceptions to the general rule.
Further that the exceptions noted the differences that made them exceptions by those - in - Judo

[yusuf]

Is Judo internal as well?

don't all humans have the ability to feel inside their bodies?

[cloudz]

Hi Dan

Could it be down to long time experience in Judo technique and randori compared to his less experience training partners/students in this clip. . Rather than you can only get those skills through specific /specialized exercises. In addition he was just plain talented. An Ali, a Maradona if you will. They surely are there in every field right Why when there is one in a tma they must have a hidden specialized method?

If a Sugar Ray walked into a regular boxing gym and whooped on all the boxers and could do things they couldn't would we even entertain the idea he had 'internal' training they didn't? Yet we wouldn't find it surprising in the least. Same would go for top wrestlers, mma types.

This clip is obviously far from competative intensity, it's worth remembering.

Consider it this way. In the beginning there was .... ?

The exercises or the 'randori'/application (use). Which one evolved from the other do you think? This is not to say exercise to improve certain attributes aren't incredibly useful!

just playing Devils advocate here.. (he may well have done certain exercises a certain way - I don't know!)


George

[Josealb]

Clips like these convince me that theres no such thing as judo or xingyiquan being internal or not...instead there are internal judo guys and internal xingyiquan guys, or not.

[cloudz]

Clips like these convince me that theres no such thing as judo or xingyiquan being internal or not...instead there are internal judo guys and internal xingyiquan guys, or not.

if you and spend enough time & hardwork at something how could you not get 'internal' at it ?

It could even be a golf swing.

edit. what yusuf said!

[GrahamB]

Is Judo internal as well?

don't all humans have the ability to feel inside their bodies?

Indeed - my question is somewhat sarcastic. It just seems to me that "internal" sometimes just means "very good". That Judo guy is very good - do we have to call it "internal" as well?

[Interloper]

Clips like these convince me that theres no such thing as judo or xingyiquan being internal or not...instead there are internal judo guys and internal xingyiquan guys, or not.

if you and spend enough time & hardwork at something how could you not get 'internal' at it ?

It could even be a golf swing.

edit. what yusuf said!

Jose has the right idea.
There are specific ways of conditioning the body, with specific drills and exercises, that create a way of carrying oneself while controlling center and structure, and a non-typical means of generating power. They are not part of the natural human skill set; they have to be learned hands-on.It's possible, perhaps likely, that they were discovered long ago "by accident," their efficacy noted and then processes created to further develop and to teach them.

An athlete who trains consistently and for improvement gradually hones his body and skills, most notably reducing the amount of gross movement he makes and refining every movement to a nuance. This increase in efficiency ("less is more") is often mistaken for "internal" skill when really it's just more refined externally powered movement. Anyone here who has excelled in any discipline, whether sport or art, likely has witnessed the process in himself.

Again, the internal skills being discussed here are a discrete skill set that must be specifically learned and inculcated. Mifune had to have met someone who provided his training, likely outside of the judo dojo. A number of martial artists who became famous as having internal skills, received those skills outside the formal system in which they were training and were high-ranked in.

[ashe]

do you suppose there's any video of takeda floating around? that would be cool to see.

[WVMark]

Clips like these convince me that theres no such thing as judo or xingyiquan being internal or not...instead there are internal judo guys and internal xingyiquan guys, or not.

Seems to echo with me. When I look at Mifune in certain vids, he does things that you do *not* see any other judoka doing. Even older judoka. In the very first post, watch the clip. At 0:23 and at 0:30, Mifune isn't tossed on his back at all. Instead, what happens? It's as if Mifune is part of the other person. But, yet, more is going on. At 0:24, Mifune comes down to the ground in perfect balance and structure. Watch the 0:30-32 timeframe. The person gets spiraled out and away. Mifune uses "normal" judo waza to throw people with ease. Mifune is putting internal skills into judo. He's an internal judo guy, as you posted.

In the second vid posted by Interloper, look at 0:15. Mifune is all the way off the ground, but the big guy still can't throw him. Outweighed by a lot, yet he can't throw Mifune, even with Mifune's feet off the ground. To make matters worse, Mifune is completely solid when his feet touch the ground. Look at 0:18-0:22. Mifune's on one foot and the guy can't even get a good entry (no kuzushi) to set up a throw. The vids of Mifune are full of this kind of stuff. Then go watch "normal" judoka in the same kind of situation. Never looks the same.

[Interloper]

do you suppose there's any video of takeda floating around? that would be cool to see.

I'll reckon there are people here who would sell half their farm to get hold of any films of Sokaku Takeda.

Takeda was notorious for eschewing media coverage, yet he was known to grant interviews and there are some good ones still around and translated into English. But films or films to video? Quien sabe? Sokaku died in 1943, so he was around long after movie film was commonly used. It's tantalizing to think that there may be something in an attic or family safe-deposit box somewhere in Japan.