Horikawa Kodo _Daito-ryu

[Brady]

While it may not be the end goal, it is helpful to have a "map" or system of techniques through which one can study the shenfa IME.

[Bodywork]

You both make some excellent points.

My views
Waza
Waza often does "look" the same but if you go and train with teachers in various arts you will quickly find out that many of them have distinct differences in approach and execution of the waza that we might have sworn were done the same. I had this discussion last night while teaching in the dojo of one aikido teacher about the execution of a waza from two other different arts and where the origin all of their ideas was to be found in DR and did that waza. Then we had a discussion of tenkan from a single wrist grab and I showed where the grab was meaningless, even with two hands, and with little discernable movement uke is drawn up off his feet toward you or sunk down into himself and then how it might have devolved into Aikido tenkan when low level guys couldn't work around power (not that I am even a fan of that 'aiki games" wrist grab shit-I can do very well but i'd rather throw someone on their head or hit em.) The point remains that I like MArk have trained with too many very senior teachers in aikido and bore witness to much detailed differences in the execution of the same technique.
In DR it is much more complicated than that in the fact that the schools have entirely different syllabus all together. and behind the scenes many of them cut up the efforts of others. Regardless there is no confusing Kondo and his approach with Sagawa or the Takumakai with the Roppokai.

Aiki and the body method
Chris makes an excellent point about students cominng in and not caring.
Mark makes a good point in that regardless both the body method and the waza can be trained concurrently. I always did, and though I do not teach DR, We use the body methods of two different schools, coombined with a natural progression of my own research in our own MMA and Koryu pursuits.
Again though, in our own training, and then training with others who are long time students or teachers in various branches-you get an interesting overview of those schools approaches which reveals that it is not only new studentswho donlt care about the body method- it's also loooong time students as well who still mainly focus on waza, and principles to try and make their art work. Touching hands with two year, and eight year, and fifteen year, and forty year people in DR and Aikido has proven to me in very concrete terms that time-in is absolutely no guarantee of anything...anything at all. One of the worst DR people I ever laid hands on and trained with is one of the most senior in the world. IME trying to get the body method through waza is the slow boat to China, almost to the point of being ridiculous. On the flip side the body method once learned,and then used as the prime mover makes the principles of the art in use, extremely effective and at the same time it make much of the waza superflous. Further still the body method and principles are effective in any format. For that reason I opted for more agressive and live "uses" of it instead of the "one step" training method spo often seen.
One step
For my purposes DR will forever be stifled by its own training methods. IMO the best way to train would be solo training, paired movement training focusing on the solo exercises, then the paired "one-step" (so that kuzushi or center on contact can be burned in) but then to concurrently work on grappling or even a push hands model, using the energy to redirect, absorb, and keep driving instead of "taking ukemi." It is great to master kuzushi on contact, but it is presumptous and dangerous to continue only with an ukemi model. Much is argued for ukemi but almost nothing had been written on the wisdom of training to absorb your teachers shit and learn how to cancel it out and strengthen your own abilites to put him on his ass. For that reason it is at least prodsuctive to get out there and play in a stressful environment or find others with internal skills as well. You really will only reach a deeper understanding of aiki after....and I mean only after you have proven to yourself that you can make kuzushi on contact with grapplers or other internal people in a continual exchange pre-emptive or otherwise. And the only way to get "there" is to have gone "there" and come out on the other side. I think the best guys I know learned to own their shit through failure in live settings. In fact I think the best one word definition for success is ....failure.
Cheers
Dan

[Bodywork]

While it may not be the end goal, it is helpful to have a "map" or system of techniques through which one can study the shenfa IME.

yeah, I think everyone agrees with that, Brady. That can be equally presumptous and or stifling though, dependant on too many diverse factors; bad method, bad teacher, good method, ro great method in the hands of a great teacher, or a "so so" method, in the hands of a great teacher that still led to mediocrity, or a great martial artist who simply had no ability to teach in any meaningfull way. Its a mindfield out there. I don't know about you but I have met any number of guys (and I include myself here) who have moaned about lost years in their training! And this includes some authors and fairly well know MA people I know who have looked back at their time in training in this or that and said "If only I had known.....oy!"
You know what what my motto is "Your understanding is in your hands!"
At the end of the day we are all still left owning our own shit (good bad or otherwise) and making the most of it.
Cheers
Dan

[Brady]

Ya, my biggest gripe in Judo is my teacher is a big guy and sometimes won't let me adapt the technique to my relatively small and thin frame. Just bored in class and posting the obvious haha.

[Bodywork]

Ya, my biggest gripe in Judo is my teacher is a big guy and sometimes ...won't let me adapt the technique to my relatively small and thin frame.

Hah............
You just described the birth of BJJ through Helio........
The birth of Daito ryu through 4' 11" Takeda......
Strength through adversity.

[Doc Stier]

Ya, my biggest gripe in Judo is my teacher is a big guy and sometimes ...won't let me adapt the technique to my relatively small and thin frame.

Hah............
You just described the birth of BJJ through Helio........
The birth of Daito ryu through 4' 11" Takeda......
Strength through adversity.

Quite so. And ditto for TCC's Yang Lu-Chan, SPM's Lam Sang, WC's Yim Wing Chun, Sun Lu-Tang, and a host of others, who adapted existing arts to suit their smaller size and lighter weight.

In the final analysis, although often underestimated, they all proved that small but powerful people can be formidable fighters, who probably shouldn't be tampered with.

Doc

[Iskendar]

Quite so. And ditto for TCC's Yang Lu-Chan, SPM's Lam Sang, WC's Yim Wing Chun, Sun Lu-Tang, and a host of others, who adapted existing arts to suit their smaller size and lighter weight.

In the final analysis, although often underestimated, they all proved that small but powerful people can be formidable fighters, who probably shouldn't be tampered with.

Funny thing, I'm trying to figure out how styles developed by small guys work for a big guy

[Interloper]

Iskander,
Little guys like Takeda took the internal body conditioning and made it their own because it leveled the playing field between them and larger (untrained in aiki) opponents. So just imagine what a big guy could do with it... the amount of power he could generate with these skills? That's one of the reasons why Sagawa didn't want aiki taught to foreigners - who were, on average, a lot bigger and beefier than the typical Japanese man of Sagawa's and earlier generations. Japanese bujutsuka would get their patooties handed to them on a platter!

[Iskendar]

Iskander,
Little guys like Takeda took the internal body conditioning and made it their own because it leveled the playing field between them and larger (untrained in aiki) opponents. So just imagine what a big guy could do with it... the amount of power he could generate with these skills? That's one of the reasons why Sagawa didn't want aiki taught to foreigners - who were, on average, a lot bigger and beefier than the typical Japanese man of Sagawa's and earlier generations. Japanese bujutsuka would get their patooties handed to them on a platter!

I know, why do you think I'm this interested in this stuff? I've only recently started to get a grip on 'the internal' (thanks to Ark mostly), and though it still breaks down under resistance most of the time, I'm already getting 'hulk smash' moments when striking pads Imagine what a real huge guy, who trains like a professional can do with this... Seeing Alex Kostic was quite the inspiration in that regard.

[Ian]

I know, why do you think I'm this interested in this stuff? I've only recently started to get a grip on 'the internal' (thanks to Ark mostly), and though it still breaks down under resistance most of the time, I'm already getting 'hulk smash' moments when striking pads Imagine what a real huge guy, who trains like a professional can do with this... Seeing Alex Kostic was quite the inspiration in that regard.

just another reason I train hard... because I know there are big guys out there who know how to move.

it can be worrying.

damn you, big guys who know how to move!!!

[Interloper]

Imagine what a real huge guy, who trains like a professional can do with this... Seeing Alex Kostic was quite the inspiration in that regard.

That's what I keep waiting for ... the professional MMA guys, the UFC contenders, American football teams... Can you imagine what they could do with this stuff? But they either don't know it exists, or they think it's fake, or they don't want to be bothered because they think it will take too long.

[Interloper]

Here's an odd little video compilation of some of Shioda Gozo's demos. Shioda trained under both Ueshiba and Horikawa (story has it that he didn't learn aiki/internal skills from Ueshiba, so went to Kodokai to learn it). The demo from around 3:15 on shows his mix of aiki, and some waza expressions of it, a la Kodokai, and his particular take on aikido which was transformed by his acquisition of aiki. Oh, and Mike Tyson makes a cameo appearance.

[middleway]

Gozo Shioda was such a character, alot of people commented on his great sense of humor in his demonstrations n Tough as old boots with it!

thanks for the vid.

Chris

[WVMark]

You know, I wonder why Shioda went to the Kodokai ... was it really because he wasn't learning anything? We know Tomiki, Shirata, etc got something from the same time period. Were there other issues between him and Ueshiba? No matter what the reason, Shioda is still one of the few to get to learn from two of Takeda's top students.

[middleway]

Yeh i wonder too ... Shioda was known to be a bad ass anyways ... even early when under Ueshiba. It is clear that Shioda didnt like the way Ueshiba's Aikido was going, preferring the harder more brutal Daito Ryu Ueshiba initially taught than the later 'spiritual compassion aikido' that emerged. He left Ueshiba early on due to this if i recall correctly. I guess he thought he needed to polish off his skills and the Kodokai was where he went to 'finish up' his stuff. I am not sure he went searching for the aiki work from Kodokai ... we will never know i guess!

cheers
Chris.