Conditioning

[Dr.Rob]

Pls some translations...

I have always used a straight bar with 50lbs rolling up and down...aswell as chopsticks tied together. But never a water bottle. I knew a guy named Kong form Chaing Mai...he told me as kids they used banana trees and coke bottles filled with salt and sand. I am intrested in what the Russian is saying.

[Chris Fleming]

Wow. Is that guy dehydrated or something?

[wetmarble]

That's not dehydration, in fact, it's quite the opposite. That is pitting edema. It's basically a build up of fluids in the legs.

[Kurt Robbins]

Interstial fluid build up- basically same as blood without the cells and protiens.
Good call wetmarble.

[Dr.Rob]

Pitting edema I agree...this is the translation that comes from my genius russian friend.


As for Youtube video. There are two representatives of russian combat karate (http://www.koicombat.org/eng/index.html) Andrei Kochergin and Sergey Baduk visiting Thailand. At first Kochergin (I know him personally - he is the real deal, lots of street experience) shows difference in shin conditioning between Muay Thai and karate. He says that in Muay Thai shin is conditioned by children from age of 12 years and is conditioned for 7 years minimum, cause muay thai boxers typically begin their career at the age of 19. Kochergin says that result of such long conditioning is that shins of muay thai boxer are solid as bone (to demonstrate this he kniks lightly on thai boxer shins - it sounds like he is knocking on the wooden table). After that Kochergin says that main tool for thai boxer in conditioning his shins is wet towel twisted like braid. He says that thai boxer starts every morning with conditioning with that tool. Then he says that in karate shin conditioning is different cause it's aimed not at creation of stricking tool like in muay thai, but creation of protection for shin bone. So in karate conditioning builds layer of protective tissue over the shin bone. Kochergin then demonstrates that when he presses his shin with his finger he gets cavities (small pits) which don't dissapear for long period of time. This shows that his shins are covered with thick layer of protective tissue. Then he shows that muay thai boxer's shins can't be pressed to leave such cavities. Kochergin also says that he recommends using half full plastic bottle with water to condition his shins.
At the end Sergey Baduk (real deal also, looking like ork from fantasy movie) explains how thai boxer prepare this twisted towel for shin conditioning.

Now we know.

[Andy_S]

Interesting - never came across the twisted towel method. When I did MT, the best shin conditioner was an old fasioned glass coke bottle (it has grooves in it) filled with sand. You don't KNOCK the shin, you ROLL it up and down. This is more gradual and a far better long term solution...will gradually toughen up the bone without the impact which can cause bone cancer. Oh,and eat plenty of anchovies. (Or cheese, if you prefer.)

BTW, those Russians look fucking frightening.

The guy NOT going the talking has, IMHO, the perfect fighter's physique: Good muscle mass in the upper body, pillar-like legs and a substantial gut. This means he can dish out punishment, but if you strike anywhere to his body, you are wasting your time. Oh, and with this kind of mass, he has not just got a lot to throw, he is bloody hard to throw. The only good thing is you can probably outrun him.

[I am...]

...will gradually toughen up the bone without the impact which can cause bone cancer.

Are you sure about this? If so, what evidence do you have of fighters with bone cancer due to limb conditioning?

[Chris Fleming]

That's not dehydration, in fact, it's quite the opposite. That is pitting edema. It's basically a build up of fluids in the legs.

That was my second guess, as the leg looked bloated. Firstly I was thinking about a certain condition (can't remember what it's called) where you are dehydrated to the point where you can pinch the skin and it stays pinched. Either way he may do well to stop whacking himself in the leg with the water bottle and drink the contents!

[oldtyger]

Well...that's pretty odd, creating pitting edema for self-defense. Physiologically that means basically causing damage to the veins so that you get backflow of the blood and the oncotic pressure of the surrounding soft tissue to draw the water out of the veins into the tissue.

I guess creating hypercalcified shin bones( and probably deadened nerve endings as well) is pretty odd too.

I don't think I'd go for either method. There must be a conditioning method that is better for you physically. One of my friends trained Dragon style and he basically has scary forearms, rock hard, and you would not want to get blocked by him. However, he also complains that he has lost a lot of nerve sensation due to this and now regrets training in this way. I did 3 star hitting with him once and I had painful bruised forearms for a week and used up a lot of dit da jow. He did not get a single bruise.

[Jeice]

That's not dehydration, in fact, it's quite the opposite. That is pitting edema. It's basically a build up of fluids in the legs.

That was my second guess, as the leg looked bloated. Firstly I was thinking about a certain condition (can't remember what it's called) where you are dehydrated to the point where you can pinch the skin and it stays pinched. Either way he may do well to stop whacking himself in the leg with the water bottle and drink the contents!

Seconded. I've heard this line too. I think its straight up bullshit myth until I see reviewed articles.
Also, you're conditioning your shin for impact, not deadening nerves, why would you condition by rolling something up and down when it doesn't stress the bone structure in the least.

[I am...]

Also, you're conditioning your shin for impact, not deadening nerves, why would you condition by rolling something up and down when it doesn't stress the bone structure in the least.

Conditioning can be approached in multiple ways that often support one another. On a shin for example, kicking bags and objects can toughen the tissues and bones in one way, while rolling toughens in a few others. Rolling also tends to calm the nerves/acclimate them to dealing with greater impacts without sending a braking/withdrawl signal to the limb in question. You can see this in certain Thai Boxers, (Buakaw comes to mind), in the quality of their kicks. They will have a distinctive "I don't care where this hits you, its going to hit hard" look to how they are thrown that one can often spot right away.

As to rolling vs. hitting, hitting causes small bumps of calcification on the bones, rolling allows the areas in between those bumps to slowly fill in. A shinbone conditioned using both methods will feel a bit like a very hard, smooth metal rod beneath the skin.

[DeusTrismegistus]

Why would anyone want their legs to do that? It can't be healthy.

[I am...]

That is likely another thread in the making. Deus, in response to your post, what then, do you think of taking falls repeatedly, or hitting a heavy bag with other parts of the body? The body adapts to the demands placed upon it.

[Dr.Rob]

Apparently it builds a scar layer on top of the hard bones referred to as a callous. I am still trying to find an article that I have that mentions judo players having thicker skulls on Xray due too the repetitive striking.

[Jeice]

Also, you're conditioning your shin for impact, not deadening nerves, why would you condition by rolling something up and down when it doesn't stress the bone structure in the least.

Conditioning can be approached in multiple ways that often support one another. On a shin for example, kicking bags and objects can toughen the tissues and bones in one way, while rolling toughens in a few others. Rolling also tends to calm the nerves/acclimate them to dealing with greater impacts without sending a braking/withdrawl signal to the limb in question. You can see this in certain Thai Boxers, (Buakaw comes to mind), in the quality of their kicks. They will have a distinctive "I don't care where this hits you, its going to hit hard" look to how they are thrown that one can often spot right away.

As to rolling vs. hitting, hitting causes small bumps of calcification on the bones, rolling allows the areas in between those bumps to slowly fill in. A shinbone conditioned using both methods will feel a bit like a very hard, smooth metal rod beneath the skin.

I think the striking method causing uneven development is a result of improper training more than anything, I've always built it up on a malleable but solid surface (sandbag) which conditions the shin as a whole. A major deposition was an injury, not conditioning, and was treated as such. It's like makiwara, some people go nuts and end up with locked up knuckles, huge callusses, broken bones, but the proper way doesn't even really create callus, just gradual even deposition on the striking area and support structures.
Rolling the pin to "calm" the nerves has its merit as you described, but without impact, bone remodelling, if any, will not be the impact based structural change that will strengthen the underlying bone. I guess I just figure I'm supposed to be able to feel pain when something is injured, I view conditioning as just making it harder to injure me.
On the note of the makiwara, I've met people who think those callusses are the point, but I figure no matter how callussed your hands, teeth will still cut them, I'd rather train for structure of the implement and precision to hit something telling. Not caring where it hits is has a cool factor, but I'm just not built that solidly.