Common but Useless Taiji App

[middleway]

honestly guys i dont think thats it... but maybe your right.

Otherwise it would be like saying Serge Augier, Lou de Xiou, Vlad, Mikhail, and the other good people i met were not high level. when i worked with all these people i didnt have the same problem ... and honestly, Serge is a much more imposing figure than Master Chen. If i was going to be scared of someone it would be him!!!

I generally aint afraid of being hit ... even really hit ... i generally aint nervous of people i meet in applications. This is the first time i have experienced this. I didnt feel nervous or apprehensive ... In fact i think i was smiling through most of it! Like i said, if it was a case of 'effort' then i wouldnt imagine it to be a problem as we regularly grapple in class for an hour and thats not a problem, even against big strong guys. This was literally after a couple of minutes. I have thought myself about what is being pointed out here but none of it scans with me TBH ... that is why i really dont get what he was doing at all. There is a clip i saw of him taking the breath out of a guy ... maybe i will see if i can get hold of it.

Like i say this is not something that was just happening to me. There was a guy on the retreat that i didnt go to who was very skilled in his own right and he had the same experience. I hindsight i am thinking it was something more akin to positional asphyxiation, Constantly putting you in a position where you have great difficultly taking a breath. Maybe next time he is here some of the UK people could visit him and see what i mean.

..so is it taichi?

who knows ....

I don't know about all this kill you with one touch business,

Take a sledge hammer to someones throat. It will touch once and they will die ...... this is more what i am talking about

WD, Yes thats him. Video REALLY in this case doesnt do justice to this tiny mans power. His ability to know where your going, His speed and hit power from touch are pretty amazing.

I have a vid of him applying Brush Knee Push on me which i might whack up.

Cheers
Chris

[RobP2]

I don't know if it's the same thing at work but I have felt along those lines with Mikhail. With him it felt like your tension being controlled in some way, it's not just that he is more relaxed than you, it's that he is able to control your level of relaxation/tension to inhibit your movemetn and breathing (also to the other extreme of putting people to sleep in the middle of a busy seminar).

But I think this and similar kind of work has to really be experienced first hand, it's difficult to discuss without people either not believing it or putting another spin on it

cheers
Rob

[middleway]

that sounds about right Rob actually.

cheers
Chris

[GrahamB]

honestly guys i dont think thats it... but maybe your right.

Otherwise it would be like saying Serge Augier, Lou de Xiou, Vlad, Mikhail, and the other good people i met were not high level. when i worked with all these people i didnt have the same problem ... and honestly, Serge is a much more imposing figure than Master Chen. If i was going to be scared of someone it would be him!!!

Well, I don't quite follow your logic there Chris?

Why does saying one man is good at a particular skill mean that another is then not "high level'? I'm sure "Serge Augier, Lou de Xiou, Vlad, Mikhail" and the other names you drop a lot can all do great things in their own right.. things that Master Chen cannot - does that mean Master Chen is not "high level"?

No two people are the same, and each has their own individual skills they bring to the table. Or to put it another way - everyone who is "high level" is not the same. I don't think anybody can be good at everything - people tend to specialise in particular areas.

I'm not sure about this "positional asphyxiation" theory either... sounds dodgy to me. What I think actually happens is that when the body perceives danger you have automatic 'panic' responses that are very hard to control. If you're pushing hands with somebody like Master Chen (I've never met the gentleman, so couldn't comment) I imagine he's constantly hitting your 'panic' buttons - that's why you get out of breath.

I guess you could say it's a little bit like a panic attack. http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panic_attack

Even physically fit people can be reduced to gasping for breath very quickly by a panic attach.

It's a bit like drowning on dry land. I remember Doug pushing hands with me once, and I litterally felt like I was drowning - whichever way I turned a fist was heading for my face or I was heading for the floor - there was no opportunity to 'come up for air'.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents - my best guestimate.

[middleway]

I'm not sure about this "positional asphyxiation" theory either... sounds dodgy to me. What I think actually happens is that when the body perceives danger you have automatic 'panic' responses that are very hard to control. If you're pushing hands with somebody like Master Chen (I've never met the gentleman, so couldn't comment) I imagine he's constantly hitting your 'panic' buttons - that's why you get out of breath.

Maybe meet him and see ... he will be in the UK soon.... Go on ... live a little!

guess you could say it's a little bit like a panic attack. http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panic_attack

Even physically fit people can be reduced to gasping for breath very quickly by a panic attach.

Friendly applications in the park .. panic attack ... thats quite a leap Graham ... :O ... Especially as i have been in a lot stickier situations than that and not resorted to holding my breath or panicking.

Well, I don't quite follow your logic there Chris?

Why does saying one man is good at a particular skill mean that another is then not "high level'? I'm sure "Serge Augier, Lou de Xiou, Vlad, Mikhail" and the other names you drop a lot can all do great things in their own right.. things that Master Chen cannot - does that mean Master Chen is not "high level"?

The reason i 'drop those names' is because then people can see that i have felt what some good guys have... It certainly doesnt mean i have anything of what those guys do if thats what your implying. I simply have a basis for comparison ... I am not jumping to conclusions or assuming based on a narrow minded or small experience base. I am all for going and seeing what guys have ... even if i dont want to follow their system, I know we differ on this. If it was the first good guy i had ever met and i hadnt been around good MAists a bit then, sure it might all seem magical!

What you were saying was that Master Chen was so much better that i was scared and stopped breathing. I was simply pointing out that if that was my 'fear reaction' to what i was doing ... in my opinion i would have had it from those people too. as some of them did very outwardly similar applications and i actually felt MORE scared of some of them!!!

I'm not sure about this "positional asphyxiation" theory either... sounds dodgy to me. What I think actually happens is that when the body perceives danger you have automatic 'panic' responses that are very hard to control. If you're pushing hands with somebody like Master Chen (I've never met the gentleman, so couldn't comment) I imagine he's constantly hitting your 'panic' buttons - that's why you get out of breath.

Sure ... and that skill in itself is very difficult to describe or explain. We weren't pushing hands though Which is alot of what your basing these ideas on.

My posting what i felt was not a search for explanation in any way. Simply sharing of a strange experience in the hands of a very good MAist. I wont be doing his system, i wont be trying to replicate that skill .. if it comes it comes ... so all the theories and thoughts in the world dont make much of a difference. Like i say ... go visit him when he is here next and see whats what.

All the best
Chris

[GrahamB]

Yes yes - come to my $eminar - that is the WAY!!

Don't get upset - just a little friendly chain yanking Master Chen seems like a cool dude. So long as you don't annoy him

[Ian]

I also don't think being out of breath is necessarily a matter of over-exertion.

What I have experienced (probably nothing to do with the guys being discussed) has been along the lines of understanding entrainment between two bodies.

For example (very basic examples), if you hold you breath at the right moment, the other guy will unconsciously hold his breath. If you relax, you can cause the other guy to relax.

[middleway]

Yes yes - come to my $eminar - that is the WAY!!

How about if it was free! would you look at it then?

Don't get upset - just a little friendly chain yanking Master Chen seems like a cool dude. So long as you don't annoy him

I know fella ... i dont get upset with you dude. Kinda got your humor and 'chain yankery' pegged!

Chris

[GrahamB]

Yes yes - come to my $eminar - that is the WAY!!

How about if it was free! would you look at it then?

No, not really. I have greater priorities in my life right now

Anyway, I flew all the way to San Francisco just to get headlocked by Fong and punched in the face by Cerebus.

Anything else would be kind of a let down after that, know what I mean? It don't get better than that

[GrahamB]

I know fella ... i dont get upset with you dude. Kinda got your humor and 'chain yankery' pegged!

Chris

Darn it all. I need to get a new strategy. I'm busted!

[alexsuffolk]

i can explain this.

Master Chen purposely seals the breath, it can be done in one second so it is not a case of becoming 'out of breath' due to exhertion. It is one of four special Taijiquan skills that he has.

[middleway]

cheers Alex. Was very strange indeed.

Many thanks
chris

[somatai]

Graham always trying to reduce things to fit in with your experience is not the best way to stay open and develop real skills......."i never learned anything i already knew" Having seen middleways vids and read his posts over the years it seems quite obvious that he encountered something unique and has enough under his belt to be able to make those distinctions.....i seriously doubt what he felt from master Chen was in the same league as you get from your weekly.....if i were in the uk i would definately find a way to check it out...hell i might have to hop the pond one of these days to have the experience myself.

[GrahamB]

Graham always trying to reduce things to fit in with your experience is not the best way to stay open and develop real skills......."i never learned anything i already knew" Having seen middleways vids and read his posts over the years it seems quite obvious that he encountered something unique and has enough under his belt to be able to make those distinctions.....i seriously doubt what he felt from master Chen was in the same league as you get from your weekly.....if i were in the uk i would definately find a way to check it out...hell i might have to hop the pond one of these days to have the experience myself.

No thanks mate - I never want to meet you. No offence, or anything.

[somatai]

i wouldn't be heading over to see you mate.....but to see Master Chen for a workshop .....both your humor and training come up short in my book....usually i hold my tongue on your posts but you are such a prolific foot in mouth guy every once in a while i cant help myself.....i am quite sure you don't want to meet me