aiki?

[ors]

Hi everyone!

I think this guy is a student of Gozo Shioda. Well he has learnt some thing....





Cheers!

Örs

[Interloper]

Yeah, it looks like he's learned some aiki, but it's messy and not sharp or clean. And the guy definitely is not as good at showbiz as Shioda was.
I hope you understand that the stuff this guy is doing is demo horseshit, and not much use for martial application. And his mind is all over the place, no focus, like it's all just a parlor trick to him. Makes me wish even more that someone could nab footage of Sagawa and YouTube it.

[stan baker]

these guys are always showing there stuff on the weak, big deal

stan

[AllanF]

Makes me wish even more that someone could nab footage of Sagawa and YouTube it.

Me to, or even his student Kimira Sensei.

[C.J.Wang]

"What is the real pleasure of aiki?"........................I think this one deserves a better translation.

[ors]

Yeah, it looks like he's learned some aiki, but it's messy and not sharp or clean. And the guy definitely is not as good at showbiz as Shioda was.
I hope you understand that the stuff this guy is doing is demo horseshit, and not much use for martial application. And his mind is all over the place, no focus, like it's all just a parlor trick to him. Makes me wish even more that someone could nab footage of Sagawa and YouTube it.

Yes, I can see the differences between this kind of demo and real martial usage... Feel them as well... I myself can do lots of beautiful applications with even full resistent people if they are there just "waiting for the show" to happen. Whe the same guy play free push hands with me, it is a totally different story...

I am nut sure that it would be good to see Sagawa on youtube. As I remeber from the pictures about him, he had always did some kind of similar demo with his students. This "grab my hands" kind, or "just run to me with full speed" kind...

Seriously I would love to see him as well!

Örs

[C.J.Wang]

I am nut sure that it would be good to see Sagawa on youtube. As I remeber from the pictures about him, he had always did some kind of similar demo with his students. This "grab my hands" kind, or "just run to me with full speed" kind...

Seriously I would love to see him as well!

Örs

To the eyes of a trained Daito Ryu practitioner, it wouldn't be hard to tell the difference between good and bad aiki skills even from a simple wrist grab demo.

[ors]

Hmm. Yeah I am sure! Unfortunatelly Kimura states that while living, Sagawa was the only person who had understood aiki... He is the second...
This way who could see the differences?

[edededed]

At 0:28 the old guy hops around for a bit - seems almost like a reversed demo (usually it is the "uke" who hops around)! What was the point of that?

[C.J.Wang]

Hmm. Yeah I am sure! Unfortunatelly Kimura states that while living, Sagawa was the only person who had understood aiki... He is the second...
This way who could see the differences?

Well........I've been told by Daito Ryu practitioners that Sagawa has "his own version" of aiki -- sharp and shocky -- that is quite effective comparing to those of other DR branches. But this doesn't mean he was the only person who "understood" it. Kimura certainly isn't the only individual out there with higher level aiki skill either; aiki is just a DR term for internal skills that are also found in, for example, Chinese internal arts such as Taiji, Bagua, and Xinyi.

I am inclined to believe that there are still living masters of Taiji, Xinyi, or Bagua out there who are in the same league as Sagawa and could make Kimura eat humble pie.

[AllanF]

Hmm. Yeah I am sure! Unfortunatelly Kimura states that while living, Sagawa was the only person who had understood aiki... He is the second...
This way who could see the differences?

Well........I've been told by Daito Ryu practitioners that Sagawa has "his own version" of aiki -- sharp and shocky -- that is quite effective comparing to those of other DR branches. But this doesn't mean he was the only person who "understood" it. Kimura certainly isn't the only individual out there with higher level aiki skill either; aiki is just a DR term for internal skills that are also found in, for example, Chinese internal arts such as Taiji, Bagua, and Xinyi.

I am inclined to believe that there are still living masters of Taiji, Xinyi, or Bagua out there who are in the same league as Sagawa and could make Kimura eat humble pie.

I like to think this ass well, as a taiji man, of course the only way to find out is if you can touch them and see. I am sure for example that people like Ma Yueliang could do the things Sagawa and Kimura could do.

[Interloper]

Speculation is fun, but the best thing is to go and put your hands on the men who can do things today. Kimura is a bit hard to reach, but the Chen man, Liu Cheng-De (who probably also has trained in other things, but I believe Chen taiji is his root art), Akuzawa Minoru (who gives seminars in the U.S., England, Japan and probably other countries) and, as many know, Dan Harden who posts here as "Bodywork," are all modernday representatives of the skills being discussed on this IMA board. And, by all accounts, they are accessible and open, friendly people.

[middleway]

who's this chen guy? he studied Aiki? Or are we talking Internal skills in general. If thats the case then i am sure there are many people who can present Internal skills in line with or beyond what is being discussed here ... even on this board!

Off the top of my head ... lou de xiou, Sam Chin, Serge Augier, Paul Whitrod, Su dong chen, Chen Yuen San, He Jing Han, Vladimir Vasiliev, Marcus Brinkman, Alex Kozma ..... the list goes on.

Although in the big scheme of things there aint many around who have it .... not many at all ... there are still a fairly decent number if you are willing to look ... and to travel.

what makes the likes of Sokaku Takeda etc exceptional is not their skill IMO, it is that they had internal skills akin to those found in the good ba gua, xing yi and Taiji guys, in spite of the very different training tradition and general non-existence of such things in Japan. They are the guys in Japan that stood out. I guess like Dong hai Chuan, Yin Fu, Cheng Ting Hua, Wan Lai Sheng, Yang Lu Chan, Guo yun Shen etc etc .. where the 'stand out' guys in China.

The primary difference to ME is that in china the guys i mention here had the opportunity to test and refine their work against similarly skilled guys. Sokaku and the following generations on the other hand didnt. Look how Wang Shu Jin played with Karate Ka ... its no wonder Sokaku etc could do the same ... but it doesn't prove too much. Its one of the reasons the 'aiki internal skills' thing passes over me tbh. Against alot of guys, its works good, against someone else with good internal skills from a short force strike tradition like XYLH or similar??? i dont know. But i dont think its any 'better' than what we see in the good CIMAists.

I have no doubt that out of the limelight there are many many people with skills that are beyond what we are exposed too in the big wide internet world. The people we know about are generally those who have be publicised somewhere ... by someone or themselves. That's the only reason we know of them just think of all those people that dont have schools, that just train ... and train .... ..... and train.

cheers
Chris

[Interloper]

Chris,
Liu is in China, but according to some people who've trained with him, he has been to the US on occasion. One item that has been brought up several times on various MA boards is that he lived in Japan for 10 or 12 years and taught his aiki skills to a couple of Kimura's students! So, that's a good indication that he either has derived the equivalent of aiki from his Chinese training, or he knew some top guys in Japan. I think he got 'em in China, and that they derive from the same body methods as aiki. A rose by any other name.

Here is one of a two-part video (you can view the 2nd plus another video of Liu once you're on YouTube -- check out the "related" column). There was another showing him demo-ing qin-na (with aiki) on a student, but since I bookmarked it, it has been put off-limits as a private video, unfortunately.



As for aiki (or CIMA) "working" against people of similar skill --- AFAIK, there is no skill or ability that can't be trumped by other people with the same or better skill and ability. That's why there are arms races. Sagawa even said that aiki should never be taught to foreigners (e.g. big Westerners) because then they would have an advantage over the Japanese (who were small in those days due to a comparatively low-protein diet). Aiki/"internal" body skills are a serious skill advantage over what has been classified as typical "external" (i.e. hip-torque/forward-momentum-driven) skills. But they are not in themselves a panacea, as you know. They are "a nutritious part of a balanced breakfast," as the cereal commercials say. And in my opinion and experience, they are THE keystone that fuels martial power. But they have to be matched with fighting skills and knowhow. And raw hands-on experience.

[middleway]

many thanks for the information interloper.

As for aiki (or CIMA) "working" against people of similar skill --- AFAIK, there is no skill or ability that can't be trumped by other people with the same or better skill and ability. That's why there are arms races. Sagawa even said that aiki should never be taught to foreigners (e.g. big Westerners) because then they would have an advantage over the Japanese (who were small in those days due to a comparatively low-protein diet). Aiki/"internal" body skills are a serious skill advantage over what has been classified as typical "external" (i.e. hip-torque/forward-momentum-driven) skills. But they are not in themselves a panacea, as you know. They are "a nutritious part of a balanced breakfast," as the cereal commercials say. And in my opinion and experience, they are THE keystone that fuels martial power. But they have to be matched with fighting skills and knowhow. And raw hands-on experience

Agreed Thats kind of what i meant regarding having access to people with a similar or superior body skill but varied tactical methods. This is a reason for the exchanges between the likes of zhang zao dong, Li Cun Yi etc They had access to, and trained with, individuals who would test them to a different degree than the 'average joe'. I guess it was like an equal playing field, Both with deep internal skill but one with Xing yi's tactical ideas, one with ba gua's. This is why we see ZZD ba gua with Xing Yi tactical influences or Li Cun Yi's xing yi with Ba gua tactical influences.

Serious question, do you think Sagawa, Ueshiba or even Sokaku had peers around them from completely different lines that could challenge or exchange with them to evolves their method, allowing them to cater for working against similarly 'internally' skilled opponents?

cheers
Chris