POSSIBLE REPOST- Old School Sparring

[Strange]

her her her

roflm sexy ao!!!

[Chris McKinley]

An example of recursive irony.....my kingdom for a sarcasm text button.

[mrtoes]

I love this board!!!

[Bodywork]

It's hard to understand what you are saying here. Anyway, my joke wasn't necessarily aimed specifically at you but at the idea in general which we seem to be seeing when it comes to sparring clips lately. Some couldn't even agree if Maoshan and Lyte were actually fighting in the clip of them going at it, and then some similar things here, overly verbose, intellectual mental masturbation as to what REALLY is sparring . Funny as hell. At least to me.

Chris
I was stating that both were sparring clips but not full resistence. Thats a different animal. And as I said twice, "its all good."
To the detractors or armchair quaterbacks I tried to make the point that at this late date I didn't see a need to that anyone should have to defend Tim's methods I think they speak for themselves quite well.
My own "joke" back at ya was along the lines of "What you need a video to validate observations and experience now?"
Dan

[Bodywork]

.... stop dancing around the idea of actually showing yourselves on video. Dan Harden says a lot of good stuff and I agree with him for the most part, but at this point I just need to see.

Hey Dan I'm not talking about defending any method. That's not it since I agree that the description was misleading. Good try at re-directing though.
I'm asking you to show us your sparring against fully resisting opponents. At least let's establish what it means to "fully resist".
Now stop dancing around my suggestion like a fairy and post your vid of sparring fully resisting opponents.

When we spar we have gotten broken bones, bruises, need to see the chiropractor the next day and all manner of mayhem. And we are at least in some manner, getting kicked, hit, thrown, head butted, choked etc for our trouble.

This I have to see.

Re-directed? I was very clear. How amny times do you want me to say the same thing? I don't do video. Is that a requirement to having an intelligent discussion?
Shoot me a P.M. I'm easy to find. We do armed and unarmed work here. We can start with 5 oz gloves, then move on to weapons like some genuine "old school" training. You don't need to bring any weapons -I've got plenty. We can start with twin sticks, then on to bokken or shinai (with or without armor) whatever you prefer, then spear, then some wooden knife training. Knife training usually heals in a week or so-although some of us have broken bones or permanent scars. That will give you an overall taste of what I consider "fully resistant." After me, I'll introduce you to a couple of other rather interesting people you can call fairies, question their injuries and tell them "if its not on video it didn't happen"... I am sure they will be more than willing to show you just how they got them... and we'll see how that works out for ya.
Okay, okay, seriously now- if you want to play sometime shoot me a P.M. we're a friendly bunch.
Dan

[Chris Fleming]

Hey Dan, I don't see anything wrong with your description as to how you spar. Getting bruises and some broken bones have been par for the course at times when sparring, and when we did weapons we never used kendo armor or something like that.

[cerebus]

Fortunately never had any serious broken bones from sparring (just toes). Thought I had a broken nose once, but it was just a bit mashed. Had some torn cartilege between the ribs from a San Da match in Europe once (that was painful). Otherwise just bumps, bruises & fat lips.

[bailewen]

Same here. Just lucky I guess. I think I may have cracked a rib once or twice but without an x-ray it's kind of hard to tell a crack from just a bruise or slight dislocation even. Hurt like hell to breath or lie down to sleep for about a week. Hurt in general for about a month.

What am I doing "wrong" that I never actually broke anything?

[strawdog]

It easy to be hard, but hard to be smart.

I don't believe in training to a point of injuring someone or being injured. I don't believe in reducing my or my groups ability to fight because they are not smart enough to train with health and wellness in mind.

People in the old days couldn't afford to be broken or incapacitated. Medicine was not that good back then. Any type of injury that can be incapacitating for a short time or crippling in the long term just weakens the individual and the group as a whole. I've been around enough guys, professional and amateur, to know what injuries can do someone's career or life. A serious injury changes a lot of things.

I'm not impressed with claims of training to a point of injury. I'm more impressed with training without injury while developing real skill. It's harder to be smart. If you can show me that then we have something to talk about. Otherwise, I'm not interested in meeting. There's no incentive. It's easy to find mean and tough guys who relish in getting all jacked up.

It's hard to find fit and healthy old warriors who've seen it and done that. They have my full attention and I will travel the world to meet one.

[Bodywork]

I'm not impressed with claims of training to a point of injury. I'm more impressed with training without injury while developing real skill. It's harder to be smart. If you can show me that then we have something to talk about. Otherwise, I'm not interested in meeting. There's no incentive. It's easy to find mean and tough guys who relish in getting all jacked up.

And it's just as easy to meet hobbyists (in the old days they called them dilatants) who talk about full resistance and what it can do for their training and when they finally encounter what it can *really* do for other guys who trained it and how it has altered their mindset and readiness-they fall apart. As was witnessed in more than a few videos here. I've seen it many times before. I'm fine with that too as long as they just recognize when they are using a term they know little about. I think of it as a type of training that they haven't tried yet. Of course we don't train that way every day and you have to train safe to dill, but there are some very serious and worthwhile lessons gleaned from fully resistant, "all bets are off" and you might get hurt training that you simply won't learn anywhere else. i have seen grown men tear up in frustration and or fear. And I might add those lessons can ONLY be learned from going through it. One of your tag lines "over confidance kills" is true, but does not address a very serious and hard one benefit needed in fighting; that being the other side of the coin ...a healthy and balanced confidence. Confidence and focus under stress is a great attribute that simply cannot be handed to you, it has to be earned.
That said, the vast majority of your training times has to be in drills-its the only way to first learn to think while under marginal stress and burin in set ups, moves, and response timing. In fact that is where the real work is and as you successively ramp things up and increase your skills, but until you yourself walk down that road against someone seriously trying to take your head off-you’re never going to really get it...yet. There is a reason many boxers, wrestlers (no, not all) get hurt occasionally in training accidents-they are testing to the edge and it is also the reason that Judo and BJJ are having less and less impact in the UFC. In "full resistance" many of their otherwise excellent attirbutes simply will not work. MMA is a different animal.
When you try that with weapons -shit happens. Weapons are a whole other class of training; requiring much more focus and awareness. They are also much, much faster than empty-hand work and thus can be more dangerous. Most guys I know consider it a more serious level of training and harder to do. There are a few well known authors and experts of Japanese arts who agree, one of whom said it best. "If you are training in old school Budo and you haven't been occasionally hurt as part of your training-you're not doing Budo." That said, anyone who tells me "we train full resistance" and hasn't had their nose broken at least once, or been banged up, knocked out, got a concussion, or been sprained and strained..is simply fooling themselves. It's that simple. You may train hard, wrestle a bit on the ground, with other wrestlers and that's fine-good on ya! No problem. But to talk down to those who either trained to the edge in the past or are doing so now says more about you than them.

It's hard to find fit and healthy old warriors who've seen it and done that. They have my full attention and I will travel the world to meet one.

Really? I have seen a belly full of "old warriors" who never really seen "it" and never really done "that" and were never "warriors" in the first place, and demonstrated quite clearly and in short order that they were clueless to deal with hard chargers; kicking, punching, and grappling, at the same time. Then there are banged up guys who have played hard and just simply turn "on" and get the work done.
As far as health goes, I will gladly test that anytime. I regularly experience men much younger than me gas-out trying to throw or hit me. FWIW, that’s from years of playing smart and conditioning the body in ways you probably know little about, not being "jacked-up" and "mean," which isn't in my realm of reality. There is a different brand of toughness than that horseshit. We have routines for training and testing for internal power and softness. So come on over and we can test your degree of soft power; statically and then under extreme stress and see how you hold up and when you turn into a shoulder-heavy, flexed muscle meathead under stress-as most do.

One of your tag lines The confidence of the amateur, is the envy of the professional." - Tim Cartmell... is good advice for you. All due respect (you might note I didn't offer snide comments and couched insults back your way like I got- I'm just talking to you rationally and evenly) you might want to take a moment to recognize there are men out there who have been in the shit and played hard who are *not* meat heads, jacked-up or suffer personality disorders, and they understand, and can offer methods of training you may be largely unaware of. It's a big bad world out there; it's smart to be polite!
Good luck in your training
Dan

[strawdog]

But to talk down to those who either trained to the edge in the past or are doing so now says more about you than them.

I don't talk down on anyone I've met who has put blood, sweat, and tears to earn their skill. The problem is you expect people to simply take your word for it. How do I know that what you claim is true without seeing it? You know that a lot of people talk tough about this and frankly I'm simply jaded. Like I said I agree with you for the most part, but at this point I've got to see it. Perhaps I do need come see you and your friends and possibly meet some kindred spirits.

Besides, who said I've never been hurt? Do you think I walk the circle, do forms, and two man drills and think I'm a bad ass? I know better. I know that there are men out there who put more grim and painful effort than me. That's why I don't claim to be on the edge. I've seen the edge, live blades were involved. I'm not there yet. Every injury I got in training was a set back that's why today I'm more interested in finding methods that allow me to go hard but at the same time maintain my health and fitness. I'm just an amateur.

That being said, professionals don't talk so much about being hardcore.

[Chris McKinley]

Dan,

Assuming for the sake of argument that all of what you are saying is true, it still does not escape the fact that training recklessly to the point of regular and/or debilitating injury does not produce as good a set of long-term results as training safely with the same intensity, the occasional sprain, contusion, separation and busted nose notwithstanding.

RE: "...there are men out there who have been in the shit and played hard who are *not* meat heads, jacked-up or suffer personality disorders...". I've worked with people at least as hardcore as the hard-charging men you are describing here. I've had the privilege of training, training under, and training alongside a large number of them over the years. While certain risks are unavoidable and injuries, even serious and occasionally lethal ones, can and do happen despite the best precautions, to a man they would find the attitude toward sparring that you describe as grossly unprofessional and the progress available through it ultimately retarded by its own machismo. The men who most need and most use the level of battle-tested skill you and your hardchargers are after are also those who can least afford debilitating injury, whether short or long-term.

Granted, strawdog has certainly not come across as particularly "polite" in his exchange with you on this thread, but your condescension in return may not be entirely warranted in his case. It definitely isn't in mine. And frankly, if you're going to tell someone "how it is" training for teh re4lz by describing the kind of irresponsible weapons training you did, you'd do well to compare your methods with what's actually being done in professional circles before appearing to offer the final word on the subject. Your descriptions make it apparent that there are methods of training that you may be largely unaware of.

[Interloper]

Although I'm also just another Unknown on the forums, with no videos to my name, I will attest to the fact that training against fully resisting opponents, despite being in the controlled environment of a school training ssession, does result in injuries even when everyone is trying to be careful. Shit happens. In my years of training, I've gotten plenty of concussions, a couple of broken bones and cracked ribs, one injury that could have given me a lifelong disability (but didn't, thanks to expert emergency surgery), and a massive jaw infection that nearly cost me my front teeth! And that's not counting the cavalcade of bruises and contusions, "goose eggs" and assorted aches and pains... And that was training with people who were trying their best not to kill me while giving me the resistence I needed to improve my skills.

It didn't happen every day; it happened cumulatively over a span of decades. If you average it out, it doesn't seem too bad, particularly if compared to a pro hockey player or football linebacker. Or a boxer over the course of a year's bouts. It's the nature of the critter.

Martial arts are just that: martial. Though many modern practices are for self-defense and sport, the old arts they are derived from were originally intended to maim and kill, even though they later got softpedalled to be self-defense in more peaceable times. To learn to swim, you have to go in the water and get wet. To learn an authentic combat art, you have to train it as close to authentically as possible, and that means incremental increases in "heat" as the student advances... or he won't advance.

Throw in weapons training, and the ante gets up further. What other purpose does a weapon such as a sword or dagger have, other than to maim and/or kill? Empty-hand arts that came from weapon arts have the same basic underlying form and can be equally deadly except for want of a cutting edge to slice arteries. You have to practice weapons within their ranges or you won't develop the proper depth perception for real application in those ranges -- you'll always be too far away. So, if you train with wooden swords and the like, despite the best control, sometimes people are going to be whacked and it's gonna hurt. I have a chondroma on one of my fingers as visible testament to that, and x-rays would reveal lots of healed crackes in my metacarpals too!

Why do we do it? Because -- to quote Mill Murray's character in "Stripes" -- there is something seriously wrong with us. We love this stuff; it intrigues us and challenges us intellectually; a physcial game of chess. It's just chess with consequences beyond just being checkmated for a mistake.

Dan,

Assuming for the sake of argument that all of what you are saying is true, it still does not escape the fact that training recklessly to the point of regular and/or debilitating injury does not produce as good a set of long-term results as training safely with the same intensity, the occasional sprain, contusion, separation and busted nose notwithstanding.

RE: "...there are men out there who have been in the shit and played hard who are *not* meat heads, jacked-up or suffer personality disorders...". I've worked with people at least as hardcore as the hard-charging men you are describing here. I've had the privilege of training, training under, and training alongside a large number of them over the years. While certain risks are unavoidable and injuries, even serious and occasionally lethal ones, can and do happen despite the best precautions, to a man they would find the attitude toward sparring that you describe as grossly unprofessional and the progress available through it ultimately retarded by its own machismo. The men who most need and most use the level of battle-tested skill you and your hardchargers are after are also those who can least afford debilitating injury, whether short or long-term.

Granted, strawdog has certainly not come across as particularly "polite" in his exchange with you on this thread, but your condescension in return may not be entirely warranted in his case. It definitely isn't in mine. And frankly, if you're going to tell someone "how it is" training for teh re4lz by describing the kind of irresponsible weapons training you did, you'd do well to compare your methods with what's actually being done in professional circles before appearing to offer the final word on the subject. Your descriptions make it apparent that there are methods of training that you may be largely unaware of.

[Chris McKinley]

Interloper,

Since you quoted my post, I'll assume yours was directed at me and not just to the board in general. For the most part, I completely agree with you. But then again, for the most part, I completely agree with Dan as well. However, even with all of what Dan stated and all of what you just posted being true, it still does not change the fact that, among the personnel most needing to both train and use this harshest and most intense of material, training recklessly to the point of regular and/or debilitating injury does not produce as good a set of long-term results as training safely with the same intensity.

It also does not change the fact that those same personnel are also those who can least afford debilitating injury, whether short or long-term. We're not talking fat lips, goose eggs, bloody noses, scraped shins, the occasional shiner and the like. Such are par for the course. Those aren't debilitating injuries. As I already mentioned, those things happen. Unfortunately, and also as I already mentioned, so do real injuries and even fatalities. Even in the most professional of programs, they do occasionally occur. But I can tell you this...they don't occur because the trainees are knowingly training in an unsafe manner. The cost is already high enough even with maximizing the safety of the trainees wherever possible to justify knowingly using unsafe training practices.

You make a certain statement here that doesn't necessarily constitute an outright disagreement of fact with me, but bears addressing. RE: "Though many modern practices are for self-defense and sport, the old arts they are derived from were originally intended to maim and kill, even though they later got softpedalled to be self-defense in more peaceable times.". I agree with you regarding the sportive aspects, but IMO, to make this statement regarding self-defense is not to understand what self-defense actually is. If you purport to be training for self-defense and you are not training to be able to maim and kill, then you are not training for self-defense, period, end of story. You're living in a fantasy land.

RE: "To learn to swim, you have to go in the water and get wet. To learn an authentic combat art, you have to train it as close to authentically as possible, and that means incremental increases in "heat" as the student advances... or he won't advance.". I absolutely agree and have been as tireless and vocal a champion of this very idea as anyone in this forum's entire history.

You're completely right regarding weapons as well. In fact, in my case, you're preaching to the preacher, not just the choir. Like you, I've had my share of scars, breaks and fractures....some from training and some from the actual native context. I know from personal experience all about how deadly weapons can be, even in training. In addition to their actual use, I've seen training fatalities and many injuries under professional conditions that were as safe as anyone knows how to make them. Even with the safest of precautions, they still happen. And that's really the point. Under the best of conditions, serious injuries and fatalities are unavoidable enough that using knowingly unsafe methods is inexcusable to professionals and those who wish to train at that caliber.

[Bodywork]

Hello Chris
i'm assuming your comments were about general training wiht weapons and not about me. You used my name and post to make a point unrelated to me. I am doing the same thing.
This is for other readers...
Chris wrote:

I know from personal experience all about how deadly weapons can be, even in training. In addition to their actual use, I've seen training fatalities and many injuries under professional conditions that were as safe as anyone knows how to make them. Even with the safest of precautions, they still happen. And that's really the point. Under the best of conditions, serious injuries and fatalities are unavoidable........

Yes, both I and many others I know who train with and without weapons have found that to be true enough.

enough that using knowingly unsafe methods is inexcusable to professionals and those who wish to train at that caliber.

"unsafe methods that are inexusable" is not something relating to my name or my training methods. as for methods, can anyone (who doesn't know me ) describe my training method; past and present, for readers here? How about point to any post, on this board, hell on any board, that I have ever offered a description of a "training method" to anyone to a point that they would be informed enough to even comment on...a method...of mine?

As for health and old men, I'm 53 and I put my flexiibilty, athletisism, cardio, and then power and fighting ability up against guys much younger than me on a regular basis. I'd say that's not bad for measuring the "healthy aspects" of "my training methods." Since I happen to know a bunch of older guys in budo with a host of injuries effecting their mobility and lives, I imagine putting my method up against a group of men my age would leave me very high on any list.
Why?
We train smart!
Good luck in your training
Dan