Russian MA SYSTEMA disgrace

[Hobotov]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEHSmui3Gic
This was filmed during confrontation between two well known masters of russian SYSTEMA/Kadochnikov school. Frolov is official Moscow representative of Kadochnikov school. Starov studied Kadochnikov system too, but then formed his own school in search for big money. Frolov wrote crap about Starov on his website. So Starov decided to orginize duel. But Frolov refused to fight. After that Starov slaped him couple of times and tried to chocke. Fight was stopped after 45 sec.
Both Starov and Frolov claim to be masters of grappleing, real life fighting and even non-contact fighting. But in reality they have shown no skill at all, struggling like two drunk bummers.
SAMBO is real russian MA, not this crap.

[GrahamB]

"two drunk bummers" has an entirely different meaning in English to what I think you meant!

[RobP2]

Lol @ Graham

Starov is hardly a "well known master", but then that's BDTD material. Funny he never went to challenge Ryabko

[GrahamB]

Perhaps there's a wider issue here though:

When "martial artists" fight for real:

Systema:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEHSmui3Gic


Wing Chun:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2fNPW9OgmY


Bagua/52 Blocks:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCWqv0ABIok


Southern Preying mantis vs Grappler
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-m3HcgR2 ... re=related


Wu Tai Chi vs White Crane (with rules)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S19VsB7__v0


Chen taiji vs XingYi (un-cooperative pushing)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aYtgIkJ5UE


The list goes on. Any more to add to the list?

I think at some point people have to decide that real fighting just ain't going to look pretty and get over it.... ?

[Josealb]

Ah, welcome back G. We missed ya.

You got a point. Although, to be fair, i could link a few street fights that were an absolute beauty to watch...like the boxer taking on 6 guys after a traffic discussion..or a specific kazakhstan street fight between teens. Cant right now, im at work.

[Areios]

the list is very very long i think... but who cares? Do your stuff, watch them and laugh, and that's it.

[Chris McKinley]

Excellent presentation of evidence, Graham, even if it isn't a wide sample or whatever. The point comes across to the objective among us. That's why I long ago began describing the practices of neijia as a pursuit of Platonic ideals. You're never in your lifetime gonna see a neijia practitioner get attacked by someone intending to take his life, and have neijia guy's movements look indistinguishable from the movement he displays in practice. For my money, I'm willing to bet it's never happened in human history except by purely accidental serendipitous opportunity.

If your overall point here is true, it should send many martial artists sprawling for cover and racing to get back to the drawing board. It should also get them to start taking a little more seriously the axiom that one should train as he fights, and fight as he trains. Observance of that axiom has to be a conscious choice, it does not happen automatically....as those clips all show.

[GrahamB]

Ah, welcome back G. We missed ya.

Stop it - you're making me get all misty eyed

[cdobe]

Ah, welcome back G. We missed ya.

Stop it - you're making me get all misty eyed

You're back. What a bummer!


Feel better now ?

[everything]

why aren't we all just doing mma, regardless of the specific mix? or maybe most here already are.

even evenly matched competitors can look pretty disciplined. otoh, they can look like playground slugfests, too.

[AllanF]

"two drunk bummers" has an entirely different meaning in English to what I think you meant!

LOL

Another one to add to Graham's list.

Wang Changan (Zhaobao taiji in Hong Kong) vs A.N. Other

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LIIKOKa ... annel_page

As to why we're not doing MMA, personally speaking, of course, i do taiji because a) it has other benefits besides being a martial art and b) it is a frustrating study and one that there seems to be no end to. When i think i have discovered something i am then taught that there is more much more to still discover. Not saying that MMA doesn't have these benefits either but for where i am in my life (mid 30s married with a 3 year old girl) Taiji is a good fit. And also taiji is something i would feel a lot happier about teaching my daughter than say MMA....because taiji is soooo feminine! (thought i'd get that one in before anyone else! )

[Dr.Rob]

Thanks for the post Dmitry, glad you found us here.

Did you find this on failblog.org? I am glad to see that with all his wailing away it only produced a stand up from the other.

The point I like about this vid is the dudes in the background all lookin as if "wtf?"

Another one to add to the list is the old bald guy who shots lasers from his fingers and supposedly knocked out 300 challegners and the BJJ challenger zings him..It was posted around here a few months back?

[GrahamB]

Excellent presentation of evidence, Graham, even if it isn't a wide sample or whatever. The point comes across to the objective among us. That's why I long ago began describing the practices of neijia as a pursuit of Platonic ideals. You're never in your lifetime gonna see a neijia practitioner get attacked by someone intending to take his life, and have neijia guy's movements look indistinguishable from the movement he displays in practice. For my money, I'm willing to bet it's never happened in human history except by purely accidental serendipitous opportunity.

If your overall point here is true, it should send many martial artists sprawling for cover and racing to get back to the drawing board. It should also get them to start taking a little more seriously the axiom that one should train as he fights, and fight as he trains. Observance of that axiom has to be a conscious choice, it does not happen automatically....as those clips all show.

Thanks Chris.

One thing I often wonder about is whether it's really the experienced martial artists who need to "go racing back to the drawing board" or the viewers (of a fight) or beginners in a style who have completely unrealistic expectations of what it's meant to look like when used for real.

I think it's more likely that the more experienced martial artists has a more realistic expectation of what a "fight" is going to look like - they know it's never going to look pretty when the shit hits the fan - it's the rank beginner or casual observer who expects you to perform a picture perfect Single Whip during combat.

I remember after a bout of contact sparring once I pulled my helmet off exhausted, and collapsed down onto the grass to catch my breath after giving my all but basically managing to survive for a 2 minute round against a larger and stronger opponent hell bent on hurting me. I was pretty pleased with what I'd done. Standing next to me was a beginner who had been training a matter of months and was basically not very good. He would have lasted about 5 seconds in a bout like that. He looked down at me like there was a bad smell under his nose and said something like "I thought that looked a bit scrappy". The only thought in my mind was "You Sir, are a complete TOSSER", but what it really was was that he had a completely unrealistic expectation of what a "fight" should look like. It's a learning process for everyone.

[GrahamB]

Ah, welcome back G. We missed ya.

Stop it - you're making me get all misty eyed

You're back. What a bummer!


Feel better now ?

Thank you, that is much better.

I shall try to be more humble this time and less of an asshole.

[Bodywork]

None of this is any surprise to me. The only way to learn how to fight is to fight. Period
I joined the martial arts from the outside in, as a kid I hung with MMA / grapplers who loved nothing better than tuning so called martial artists. Nothing much has changed accept that the world has caught up to the truth that hundreds (if not thousands) of us were doing and learning about MMA in the 70's.

I think the sadder reality is that few give credence to internal training for most of the reasons seen on the video-the guys practicing internals can't fight! So this wonderful, practical and highly efficient body of knowledge-already in danger of fading- will fade further still due to the pressures of modern combatives. Lets consider what might happen if more and more students of TMA would go play as well. Go mess around, experiment and learn not only how to fight- in other words not to dump your system and grapplel- but rather learn what are the real drivers, the essential power and principles of your art and rediscover, or even invent where necessary, the truly effective elements from within that work seemlessly into MMA. It's mentally and physically challenging and a bucket load of fun. Then you can enjoy what I used to do-going back and showing other people in your system "Want to see this used to stop a judo guy? Want to see that used in setting up and controling a boxer?" And even have your teacher scratching his head.
I think many of us are capable in coming up with solutions- but few are doing the work.

I think this is a guy who has that very idea in mind
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82amIexv ... r_embedded

I would not be surprised to see him do well in a real fight. It's not going to "look" like that but many of the body method and many of the principles and drivers would cross over. e may see his students doing more of the modern work which in the end will help preserve the core system.

Dan