Liangyi Clips

[Bob]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDIcRKqw ... re=channel



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhSCXArT ... re=channel



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXBrfDxU ... annel_page

[Lincoln]

The thing that I noticed was he did not keep his hands and feet coordinated. He has good flow and concentration. Actually looking at it a second time I think that all 3 harmonies are a little off, (hands & feet, elbows & knees, shoulders & waist). He is still most likely better than my lazy ass!

[Bob]

Well, without getting into a war here LOL, the standard for our version would be:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYQOLWeS ... re=related



As you can tell, not everyone likes our variation---so what else is new? LOL

turbo222686 (1 year ago) Show Hide 0 Marked as spam
Reply i never cared for this masters movement. Why is it so blocky and boney elbowed? Everyone thinks he is great however I would not train this bagua it seems off.
He only trained with GBT for a year or two at the end of GBT's life perhaps he simply did not get the bagua goods.
Baji not to bad bagua not to good.

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I try the best I know how within our branch but have seen a substantial variation among Wu Tan(g) schools---I just wish they would be put all of Liu Yun Qiao's videos out---he has got some great deerhorn clips---but not my call---just practice.

I like a lot of Liang Yi's clips because they remind me so much of the material I practice---I like his xiao baji and pi gua along with his Yang taiji version.

I also like dbfarber's freestyle play which resembles a lot of what we play:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nf0Ytbzu ... re=channel

[Bob]

The one thing I do want to say is that regardless of whether one likes or dislikes Liu's bagua, it does not have a baji flavor or baji elements added to it as some have so often said.

[C.J.Wang]

Any master who's developed high-level skills in a particular system after decades of practice is going to have that particular system's fa-jin, body, hand, and footwork methods, fighting strategy, and overall flavor ingrained in his body. So it's not a matter of "adding" the flavor of X style to Y style intentionally. It's the fact that he's "become" X style so that, no matter what other styles he does, there will always be traces of X style present.

However, the greater question is, would his Y style be inferior or less effective because of the cross-over from X style? Not necessarilly. It might be unorthodox in the eyes of people who only practice Y style, but it wouldn't be fair to label it wrong either. It's just different.

[Bob]

C.J. Wang:

I understand your point but if that is the case then there is no such thing as a pure bagua player. Every first generation bagua player, including Yin Fu, had a system pretty well mastered before entering to the bagua system. Even if a second generation player started with no previous martial arts training, their bagua would be indirectly "contaminated" by their first generation teachers art.

In particular, the fajin and structure characteristic of baji, is not reflected in Liu fajin expression in the bagua clip. The way of delivering fajin in baji is structurally different from the way one would deliver it in bagau. Maybe you are right about the traces of the style---for example, other practitioners in the Gong Bao Tian line spent a signficant number of years playing taijiquan so in that sense their expression is shaped by the previous training.

What I have tried to avoid is the pejorative attack that since Liu played baji/pigua for so long it follows that his bagua is either inferior, contaminated by baji and therefore not "the real deal". Perhaps I am a bit proactive here but I have been in this line since 1986 and have even had to listen to a number of practitioners argue that Liu's baji/pigua was not the real deal. There are currently teachers in Taiwan who espouse this position.

On the other hand, I don't want my posts to appear argumentative---I am not claiming anything unique regarding Liu's bagua--it simply is what it is and suits my needs well and I hope others can appreicate his expression as I appreciate that found in the other lines and schools.

[shawnsegler]

turbo222686

I bet I know who that is.

S

[Bob]

Shawn, honestly, I don't know who that is and its okay in one sense but I just find it very disrespectful to go onto someone's clip and make those remarks. Yet I know that is the universal response/risk of posting any clip on Youtube. Its also very self-centered on my part to assume everyone should be appreciative. LOL

Whatever the history of the two lines is and their relationship is not going to stop me from appreciating what they offer. In particular, I think some of Michael Guen's material, at least as presented on clip, is very good---I liked some of his weapon work.

[Bob]

Here is an example of what I am trying to get at. Below is the bagua form we call bagua leg. It is almost exactly, in sequence and posture, to what I learned. Two caveats here, we would execute the form at another level in a much more smoother, flowing flavor [the practitioner in the clip might also do that but for the sake filming and teaching, the flavor is a bit more cut] and at another level we would have the smoothness along with proper fajing expression. I am very hard pressed to see any baji flavor in this form. Further more, we would take a number of the lines from what we call 64 internal hand (palm) form, which is played on the circle, and integrate some of these lines and the appropriate points [aim for 8 corners].

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J26okiDv ... re=channel



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnIEWyLd ... re=channel



Here is a variation among many within WuTan [Middle of clip]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2haqOAzmTJU



Below is an example of how we would add lines from 64 internal palm to a linear form making it quasi-linear:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwQ0-JMXePc



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There is much, much more to what is practiced in the bagua subsystem taught by Liu Yun Qiao and I am honestly hard pressed to find baji/pigua expression in the forms or the intention that Liu put baji/pigua into the system he learned. Wu Tan(g) tends to be its own worst enemy--it has never put Liu's material out in a systematic, pure, format for others to see---it may not be the "complete" Yin Fu bagua system but in my experience, it is more than adequate. My days are spent in semi-martial arts retirement so I'll the mission of unrolling Wu Tan(g) to the next generation LOL very LOL. This is called taking oneself far too serious and I just enjoy the damn practice and what I have learned.

[shawnsegler]

Just out of curiosity, since LYQ was so into the "kunwu" sword style or whatever it is he's so famous for I'm assuming you use that instead of the traditional bagua straightsword, right? Or do you do both?

Just curious. I could give a flying fuck about everybody tripping out on the minutiae of their respective lineages.

[Wanderingdragon]

Damn, so harsh, Mr. Segler

[shawnsegler]

Huh? That was like the opposite of harsh? What do you mean?

[Wanderingdragon]

Just goofin' on you about , "could give a flying fuck", but I undersrtand the sentiment.

[Bob]

Shawn:

Liu never learned the bagua sword, bagua dao, bagua spear, and bagua staff---he learned the needles, deerhorn knives, and a brass knuckle like weapon. I am lucky that my teacher, Tony Yang, lived along side of Xing Yi Master at Wu Tan in Taiwan---His name was San Dang Qi from a relatively rich family, Hebei province. His Xing Yi teacher was the family body guard. San Dang Qi said that he learned the bagua dao, bagua sword, bagua spear/double-headed from someone in the Hebei province by the name of Zhang. These are from the Cheng Ting Hua line and as my teacher learned them, Liu reviewed them---Liu, while living with Gong Bao Tian observed the spear, sword and dao training but did not have enough time for them.

So far my teacher has taught us the bagua sword which looks very much like the one on Liu Jing Ru's vcd and the bagua dao. I have not learned the bagua spear.

The Kun Wu sword is, in experience, more along the lines of a taiji sword.

Ditto on the lineage---it is what it is.

[shawnsegler]

Had you seen this jian form. I think it's very cool.