Interesting Daito Ryu Demo from Hawaii

[Andy_S]

Ineterloper:

SNIP
It was once true that Koreans hated the Japanese, but that generation is dying out, and the younger Koreans do not have the same resentment. To them, the occupation is something their grandparents and great-grandparents dealt with. Most Korean martial artists don't mention earlier Japanese influences more out of national pride. They'd rather think of their arts as their own invention than one introduced by another culture.
SNIP

Eh? What is the background to your opinion, may I ask?

On the contrary....the current generation of Koreans are more anti-Japanese than the generation that lived through the Japanese occupation...or at least, that is my experience of living here for (in South Korea) for a decade. (With some exceptions: the few surviving comfort women, perhaps.) But when you see elementary school art exhibitions put up in subways showing how they would like a nuclear bomb or tidal wave to annihilate Japan, perhaps one can blame it on the education system.

Moreover, a significant source of Korean nationalism is (for want of a better phrase) anti-Japaneseism, and this is reflected in MA to some degree.

For the record:
I use 'Japs' as an abbreviation not a pejorative.

As for whether Hapkido people "have" Aiki - I cannot say. The point I was trying to make is that they have Aikijitsu techniques. The shenfa is a different matter, but never having practiced Aiki, I cannot say what that might be.

CJ Wang:

If you are talking about Master Myung, yes, he is one of the ones who has propogated this "Hapkido is an ancient Korean martial art that comes from monks in the mountains" myth. I would strongly suggest not taking it at face value, for the various reasons give above.

if you are referring to something or someone else, I'd be interested in the source.

[C.J.Wang]

Andy S,

I read the article a long time ago and didn't pay attention to the name of the author. It might be Maseter Myung like you pointed out.

From what I have seen of various Hapkido branches in the U.S. and Korea, the locking/throwing techniques displayed usually resemble varying degrees of Aikido, Jujitsu, and Judo. So I also believe that there must have been certain influences from JMA at one point in the development of Hapkido. As for whether the influences came direclty from Takeda, without solid evidence, it's anyone's guess.

[alexsuffolk]

thanks Chris and Andy

this huge book interviewed many of Chois students and they all claim different things!

Was there no martial arts passed on by old monks in the mnts Andy? This book also interviews head of KSW and HWD who claim just that, although my intuition was that it may have been just a selling tool.

Alex

[AllanF]

Re korea/Japan China/Japan feelings, i am very much with Andy on this one, in China the ones who HATE Japan are the younger generation, the older generation (those left who fought in the war, my wife's grandfather for example) seem to understand that wars are horrific events and that not everyone is a monster, also in war time sometimes good people do bad things and that Japanese are famous for following orders to the letter. (eg the Japanese infantry officer in the Philippines who didn't stop fighting until 199? and the kamakasi pilots etc).

Compare that to the younger generation who have never seen war, think ALL Japanese are evil monsters that should be wiped from the face of the earth. When i ask in my class if that includes new born babies i usually get told "yes ALL Japanese!" So who are the real monsters? I also just finished a class with a Korean lad from jeju (cheju do) Island, he asked me what the name of the sea between korea and Japan was...i stupidly said "The Sea of Japan" And was promptly given a dressing down, The East Sea i was told is what we should call it!

The comparison between Germany and Japan is a difficult one as for example Germany has apologized to the world and the Jewish community on more than one occasion and these have been very public. In Japan apologizing is something they seem to find difficult, like it is admitting weakness, then there are the incidents with the school text books and their PM visiting the war shrine. It doesn't help the situation. In China by vilifying the Japanese in school, and in TV/movies etc (and to a lesser extent westerners) unites the people in a common enemy and thus when there are internal problems instead of blaming the government they blames outside influences. A rather natty tick to having your power unquestioned!

[Bodywork]

The connection from Hapikido to Daito ryu is an ever evolving and changing story. Most informed MAers have wisely and widely, dismissed it, a very long time ago.
Unless I was drunk and needed a laugh I wouldn't open a single book on the subject. In fact I didn't read a single post above-just skimmed and saw it was the same ol crap. You would have to have followed all the bullshit over the years to really enjoy the humor in all this. It's not exactly true, but almost true enough to say-that "If their lips are moving-they're lying."

[Interloper]

Allen, Andy, et al.
Without dragging this entirely off topic, I'll say only that my initial point was not intended to address the relations between China and Japan, only contemporary Korea. My life was "embroiled" with Koreans for many years, and the discussion came up time and again. Currently, a friend of mine, who happens to be Japanese and who belongs to a Korean Buddhist temple, had similar discussions with Koreans who were part of the occupation and their children and grandchildren. He corroborates what I have also been told and have observed myself on the matter. Times are changing, and so are Korean attitudes. It's NOT like it was during the time of the occupation or immeditately following; attitudes are gradually changing, just as Southerners in the U.S. are gradually "getting over" the North winning the War Between the States. There is still intense nationalism by some, and bitterness, but in the big picture, the climate is changing.

On the other side of the matter, I agree that Japan hasn't helped any to establish good relations by apologizing. Japanese society for the most part still considers Koreans to be sub-standard and treats them similarly to their own under caste, the "hinin/eta" or Hisabetsu Burakumin -- the so-called 'untouchables" of Japan.

Back to the topic, I agree with Bodywork that the issue of hapikido, aiki, Choi and Takeda doesn't deserve serious consideration. There is absolutely no credible body of information that would make any connection of a relationship among these things.

[Andy_S]

Interloper:

You are welcome to your opinion and you don't state your sources -though I note that you live in the US; Koreans often make the point that Korean-Americans are not Korean-Koreans - but I have lived in Korea for over a decade, am married to a Korean, and report on Korea for a living. I am in agreement with Allan's statement - and Allan, rather like myself, is a resident of China and has a Chinese missus. I will leave it at that - you are welcome to take it or leave it.

Alex:

If you want my personal opinion: The Kuksool, Hwarangdo and Tangsoodo historical claims are not just BS, they are lies, pure and simple. Today, even Korean martial researchers (when you speak to them off the record) do not consider these to be "traditional" MA.

I would say there are three "native" Korean MA;
Taekkyun: A folk dance/sport/MA that came within one practitioner of extinction in the 1980s (which shows how widely practiced MA were in pre-modern Korea - not!) It has undegone a tremendous renaissance and is now practiced all over the country, particularly on student campuses. Part of the attraction is that, yes, this is a traditional Korean MA, un-besmirched by any Jap influence. If you look at Taekkyun it does not look - in its stance and rhythm - anything like any other MA.

SonMudo/Bulmudo: The art of the monks in the temples. Again, within one practitioner of extinction in the 1970s, but was spread throught temples in teh south, and reached the general public in the 80s. Very, very athletic - requires more balance and flexibility than any other MA I have encountered, yet, unlike most KMA, IS widely practiced by older folk - who seem to develop flexibility. If I could explain it, I would say it looks like a cross between Shaolin and Yoga - with a lot of qigong and meditation chucked in. However, it DOES include the Jap shortsword, so they have picked up that from somewhere. FYI, the founder of Hwarangdo claims to have learned a temple art, but it bears zero resemblance to this stuff. (And his brother, who he emigrated to the US with, always admitted he did Hapkido)

Sukyok: Very, very small style: Only one master and one gym in country that I know of. Master said he learned it from a very, very secretie master in a village in central Korea and still has the old manual to prove it. Said master is (apparently) still alive but no longer practices and refuses to meet people. Current master says this is cos in the old days, MA men were thugs and assassins - low class - and he does not like people to know he does it. Looks like a cross between Taekkyun, kungfu and Korean court dance. Application is a lot like Aikido with strikes.

Taekkyun I am reasonably certain is legit: There are accounts, paintings and even one pre-modern photo of it. The other two I may be wrong about, as regards their legitimacy.

Interloper and Bodywork:
I frankly know very little about Daito Ryu but this elitism - "there is no possiblity that Choi could possibly have learned any" -strikes me as being closed-minded in the extreme. Many Aikijutsu people seem to get a kick out of critiizing Aikido in the same vein...and yet it is pretty damned clear that Aikido is Aikijutsu based. The evidence, to me, points to Choi learning some form of Aiki to a reasonably high (if not master) level, and passing on what he had learned back home. Maybe high-level Daito IS a different animal to Hapkido, but that could be said about many MA.

Dan:

I like you and respect your knowledge, but a comment like this:

SNIP
In fact I didn't read a single post above-just skimmed and saw it was the same ol crap.
SNIP

... is frankly unworthy of you. This is a forum. If you have got something to say, say it. Off-hand dismissiveness is arrogant, rude - some might say stupid.

[middleway]

The evidence, to me, points to Choi learning some form of Aiki to a reasonably high (if not master) level, and passing on what he had learned back home. Maybe high-level Daito IS a different animal to Hapkido, but that could be said about many MA.

Hi Andy,

To be honest i see nothing in Hapkido that is relevant specifically to Daito Ryu Aiki budo ... i dont mean that in an Elitist way ... just i dont see it specifically being from that Ryuha. The methods and moves shown could have originated from any number of traditional Japanese Systems.

for example.






all the best.
Chris

[edededed]

If you want my personal opinion: The Kuksool, Hwarangdo and Tangsoodo historical claims are not just BS, they are lies, pure and simple. Today, even Korean martial researchers (when you speak to them off the record) do not consider these to be "traditional" MA.

I would say there are three "native" Korean MA;
Taekkyun: A folk dance/sport/MA that came within one practitioner of extinction in the 1980s (which shows how widely practiced MA were in pre-modern Korea - not!) It has undegone a tremendous renaissance and is now practiced all over the country, particularly on student campuses. Part of the attraction is that, yes, this is a traditional Korean MA, un-besmirched by any Jap influence. If you look at Taekkyun it does not look - in its stance and rhythm - anything like any other MA.

SonMudo/Bulmudo: The art of the monks in the temples. Again, within one practitioner of extinction in the 1970s, but was spread throught temples in teh south, and reached the general public in the 80s. Very, very athletic - requires more balance and flexibility than any other MA I have encountered, yet, unlike most KMA, IS widely practiced by older folk - who seem to develop flexibility. If I could explain it, I would say it looks like a cross between Shaolin and Yoga - with a lot of qigong and meditation chucked in. However, it DOES include the Jap shortsword, so they have picked up that from somewhere. FYI, the founder of Hwarangdo claims to have learned a temple art, but it bears zero resemblance to this stuff. (And his brother, who he emigrated to the US with, always admitted he did Hapkido)

Sukyok: Very, very small style: Only one master and one gym in country that I know of. Master said he learned it from a very, very secretie master in a village in central Korea and still has the old manual to prove it. Said master is (apparently) still alive but no longer practices and refuses to meet people. Current master says this is cos in the old days, MA men were thugs and assassins - low class - and he does not like people to know he does it. Looks like a cross between Taekkyun, kungfu and Korean court dance. Application is a lot like Aikido with strikes.

Taekkyun I am reasonably certain is legit: There are accounts, paintings and even one pre-modern photo of it. The other two I may be wrong about, as regards their legitimacy.

Good overview! Wondering about the last one, though - do you mean subyok(chigi)? Wonder how legitimate it is - I do worry when people start mentioning masters who for some reason cannot show their faces or have no names, etc...

I also do not agree with calling the 2nd one "sonmudo" - seems Japanified right there with the -do suffix. Why don't they call it whatever it was called originally? (There was an original name, wasn't there?)

[Bodywork]

Interloper and Bodywork:
I frankly know very little about Daito Ryu but this elitism - "there is no possiblity that Choi could possibly have learned any" -strikes me as being closed-minded in the extreme. Many Aikijutsu people seem to get a kick out of critiizing Aikido in the same vein...and yet it is pretty damned clear that Aikido is Aikijutsu based. The evidence, to me, points to Choi learning some form of Aiki to a reasonably high (if not master) level, and passing on what he had learned back home. Maybe high-level Daito IS a different animal to Hapkido, but that could be said about many MA.

Hello Andy
Couple of things.
First up assigning appelations of "elitism" to me because I can spot and call a fraud "a fraud" is really rather ridiculous. Adn FWIW, there really are elites in this world. I have no problem with that either. I wonder would you say the same of the famous quack who tried to convince everyone he was a viet nam green beret? And it turned out his stuff was faked as well? Somethings are just known and further..known to be true. Sayng so is neither elitist or needs to be defended.

You're not going to convince anyone from video evidence of Hapkido guys imitating DR (rather poorly) and doing their other stuff that Choi would have high level in-house and long term training experience. Nor, as they have variously stated in the ever evoloving story;
He was servant who only watched and practied on his own
He was a favorite servant who was taught directly
He was an actual student -so talented that- Takeda wanted him to inherent the art
When told about the now famous book and uh oh, beinf faced with westerners who had acess and who could read and translate the story changed again
He never ranked him in his book, or had hims sign the book becase he was Korean (always good to throw in some hate mongering)
When told many of those guys (who were actually in the sign in book) were alive and were being interviewed and asked about him
Well...er....uhm, because he was korean he had train after hours
Then later DR was in fact influenced from Korean arts!!! gag.
Now, Hapkido came from Korean monks
The ever changing story line goes on an on as the years go by.
Look, Takeda's training history is documented. To include training foreigners. It is clear that Takeda was an obsessive record keeper and made even visitors sign his book and ranked people up the chain. Further that it would take a conspiracy on a monumental scale for all of those who knew him for forty years to all agree to lie about Choi.
Enough of this crap. That's as far as I’m going to discuss it.
Its' utter nonsense on every practical level you can approach it from.

Dan:
I like you and respect your knowledge, but a comment like this:
SNIP
In fact I didn't read a single post above-just skimmed and saw it was the same ol crap.
SNIP
... is frankly unworthy of you. This is a forum. If you have got something to say, say it. Off-hand dismissivness is arrogant, rude - some might say stupid.

It is not incumbent upon me to have to get involved with frauds or read about frauds and/ or read and reread every post on every thread were this crap raises it's head, year after year; from magazines, to letters to the editors, to mailing lists, to internet forums and blogs!
I can skim and say what I want to say. Which was enough for most people to go do their own research.

As for rude?
I will forever be rude, dismissive and off handedly insulting to the idea of Choi being a high level student of Takeda and Hapkido being DR.,,, and frankly not willing to waste words discussing spurious offshoot discussions of racism of all things- because of it.
there is no personal insult offered anywhere and you really have to try and make a case for it where none is intended.
This crap is thirty years old, Andy. At the end of millions of words and research and a shit storm of MAers wrangling and vying and hating each and then letting themselves get dragged into nationalism and racism and every other even remotely related issue-it turns out it was all a lie, Worse, a hoax. There was nothing there.
It’s pure, unadulterated, bullshit, that has dragged a lot of good men into an essentally useless argument for decades now.
Let's all go have a beer
Dan

[alexsuffolk]

thanks Andy that was indeed an excellent overview!

Is the second art the one shown in Spring, Summer, Autumn...

??

Alex

[Interloper]

Andy,
What I wrote
1. had nothing to do with China.
2. did not state that there was "no" resentment anymore, only that it is not the same resentment as that of those directly affected by the occupation or their immediate descendents, which I clarified in my follow-up post. I have met many Koreans (not Korean-Americans) who were part of the occupation or the children of such, and they were far more angry and full of hate toward Japanese than the Koreans (not Korean-Americans) I've met -- dozens, if not scores -- who are their grandchildren and great-grandchildren. It is different in subtle ways. I do believe that the Japanese openly apologizing, should they ever, would be the first step to wholesale healing, but even without it, as the generations are removed from the event, the kind of resentment that remains will be different than the out-and-out rage of those who were subjugated. That is the nature of human nature and history.
3. had nothing to do with Korean-Japanese attitudes at the time of Takeda and Choi, which overlapped the occupation.

Back to DR: Anyone who has trained in it can, I would think, pick out poseurs and fakes. I have seen film of Choi Yong Sul, and what he was demonstrating had nothing even remotely to do with DR, either stylistically or in terms of any kind of internal method. Wouldn't someone who practices, say, bagua, be able to tell whether someone in a video was demonstrating bagua? Why would it be any different for those of us in the aiki arts?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Hvb4bw1 ... re=related



The guy in the clip with Choi is Mark Wollmerhauser, who lives in the U.S. I felt him and watched him at a seminar some years ago and was not impressed. It seemed like a mix of aikido and jujutsu. What he taught and demo'd did not in any way resemble Daito-ryu. He is one of only a small handful of Americans who trained with Choi.

Koreans during the occupation learned aikido, karate, kyudo, kendo, jujutsu... I think that these sportified or modified Japanese systems became the foundation for many "new old" Korean arts. Hapkido included. Seeing Choi do a front snap kick, devoid of the inner body method that would have been something Takeda drilled into any serious aiki student, kind of clinches it for me that he msut have trained in karate, jujutsu and who-knows-what from various sources.

[Andy_S]

Ed:

The current Subyok Chigi master is perfectly happy to be photographed, interviewed, etc...his master is not. However, he did tell me the old boy was still alive (which is a sign - usually it is a case of "Oh sorry, he died last week!"). I got the (perhaps mistaken) impression that if I had pressed the issue, I COULD have been taken to meet the old guy. However, I was not training in Subyok, I was just interviewing the master for a local newspaper article; for this reason, I was not really interested in making a day trip down to the boonies to (possibly) see a secretive old retiree. Someone like Alex, who seems to spend a lot of time seeking out mysterious old masters, might have been keener.

Alex:

Yes, the MA in 'Spring Summer, Winter...' is what is now known as Bulmudo (Buddhist MA), SonMudo (Zen MA), etc, though they only showed a portion of the art - basically the more dynamic and visual rather than the meditative side of it. FYI, if U R intereested, there are clips of it up on YouTube. (Likewise for Taekkyon/Taekkyun).

Ed:

You may be right: I vaguely recall someone telling me that the Sonmudo is a new(ish) name. I am not sure of the etymology and reasons behind the name change.

Interloper and Dan:

Alright, I will leave it as per the above. Chris makes the point that Hapkido could have originated in any of a number of Japanese ryu rather than specifically Daito - fair enough. Though out of interest, I did spend half an hour last night glancing at various Japanese Daito clips on the tube, and to my eyes, about 70-80 percent of it was familiar to me (from Hapkido...something I stopped training over a decade ago). But if there is something there that only trained eyes can see, so be it.

[alexsuffolk]

thanks Andy, will have a look at those clips.

Yes if it were me with my strange obsessions for meeting masters, i probably would have persuaded him to take me into the back of beyond to meet the old yoda.....

[middleway]

hi Andy,

Though out of interest, I did spend half an hour last night glancing at various Japanese Daito clips on the tube, and to my eyes, about 70-80 percent of it was familiar to me (from Hapkido...something I stopped training over a decade ago). But if there is something there that only trained eyes can see, so be it.

Sure. The Techniques from the catalog of Daito Ryu waza can be found in many other Ryu-ha in Japan. What differentiates Daito Ryu to some degree was the Aiki side of things which it is hard to recognize unless you have trained it. It is worth saying at this point that alot of Daito Ryu online is not representative of this 'aiki' side of things. I think for body method Akuzawa is the closest i have seen as he keeps the Hitoemi idea i was taught.

Actually i dont think i have ever seen a decent demonstration of Daito Ryu online. You have to go to people like Gozo Shioda or Ueshiba Morihei to see the aiki stuff really ... When you watch the likes of Ueshiba or Shioda move and apply/receive force there is a definite and visible difference in the work and quality of force.

all the best

Chris