Another HK LHBF

[count]

I like this shot of Choi in his prime



If you ever feel Master Choi you know what these clips represent. My first teacher was a student of his and at least two of his students post here. I've known other students of his and one thing I can say is they all hit hard. This clip has to be shortly before Master Choi's retirement so it is historic in nature.

http://liuhopafa.com/fight11.JPG

[Drake]

I met Choi in person in 2000 at his school outside of Chicago. He had a hunch back then even when he wasn't practicing.

Choi sifu didn't know you, C.J. His body was prepared for anything at that point, I'm sure. He's always aware, and prepared for anything with new people he's not certain of. <<shrug>> He doesn't have a "hunch back". He relaxes his body, and prepares for whatever comes his way. With those of us he knows, and trusts his posture is different. More "normal". He came from a different Hong Kong, folks. A *lot* rougher than what's seen now. That environment influences you after having fought through it.

[Andy_S]

Eh?

So when the chap is with people he does not know (ie the vast majority of people in most everyday environments - shops, streets, restaurants, etc, etc) he is "hunchbacked"?

Does not seem a good idea to me.

EDIT
Just having watched the clip I question this definition of "hunchbacked." There is certainly a curve maintained in the spine, but he is also undulating, and there is a lot of movement in the lower torso also. IOW, looks good to me. Many IMA masters have a bear-like upper back - the back does the work, not the shoulders - but that is very different to being "hunchbacked."

[Drake]

Quite right, Andy. I was in a hurry this a.m. getting ready for work, and such. He *is* like that in most public places, however. And he does have shoulders like a bear. Little guy, raw power, and grace to watch. It was a pleasure being his student, and a joy.

[KEND]

In the LHBF system I learnt the power is generated in the lower

[KEND]

In the LHBF system I learnt the power is generated in the lower Tan Tien-hip area and
this results in a slight backward lean. My previous training in Hsing yi and Bagua made me familiar with dragon back and rib power however the LHBF was completely different, in fact it was emphasized that upper body power was not used, this was closer to Tai family power generation.
I am commenting only on the power generation not on the form which differs considerably from those I learnt, I dont wish to comment on who got the 'real teaching ' and who didnt, frankly it is of no interest to me.

[TaoJoannes]

As far as I understand it, the back curves and uncurves as one of the nine joints (as in nine joint harmony). The power comes from the expansion and contraction of all 9 simultaneously.

Sifu Choi is open about modifying the styles he studies and teaches. They seem to work pretty damn good.

Is "real" meaning "preserved completely intact the way you found it" or is "real" meaning "a living breathing progressing system of study"

If it's the latter, then he's definitely got the real stuff.

[Wanderingdragon]

Though I have been out of town, I have been able to follow this thread , and was curious as to what specifically was awful about the performance of Mr. Choi?, please elaborate Brother Wong. Also I am curious, Brother Ian, if you are not able to see a perfectly straight spine throughout this performance as he moves through it, openong and closing, with the most obvious ease of power and total connection . To say this performance is "Awful" , or to call the man A "Hunchback" are obviously blatant personal attacks. The discussion has since taken a far more civil and academic tone, as there are truly those of us who are open the study of the Arts, and welcome the opportunity to observe the True Masters that are posted here. I have studied with Choi and know that his power is REAL and his Mastery AUTHENTIC. So please, show me specifically where his performance falls short . And finally , this school outside of Chicago, where the Hunchback teaches , seems I would have heard of it , Master Choi is a short man and he is quite magical in his skill , maybe you thought you met Master Yoda the Jedi Master. I realize this thread began as an abservation of another performer , but seems to have become more about Wai Lun Choi, as he has been retired for a while now, and LHPF is still somewhat of a curiosity , I guess the Legend begins *Hunchbacked ...haha*

[Ian]

Come on. How is saying someone is hunchbacked a personal attack? That's a description of a medical ailment. If I'd said he suffers from kyphosis, not many people would know what I was talking about.

Just in my limited experience, good martial arts require that you keep your spine un-kinked. I picture good IMAs to look like this http://www.essenceofevolution.com/16vid ... king2e.htm

OTOH I don't know who Wai lun choi is, but I accept I don't know everything and given that people here are giving positive testimonials of his skill, I'd be willing to learn more.

[Wanderingdragon]

I appreciate your response , and I will suggest you take another look at the clip. If you pay particular attention to the stripe in his pants the sash around his waist and the motion of his shoulders, a trained eye will see the perfect undulation of a coiled Dragon in motion, when it is possible, look at the area of the dan tien along with the posture of his entire upper body, again a trained eye will see the fullness of the whole body breath, you can see at the end of each posture, whole body arriving at the same point at the same time, the transition unimpeded by the transfer of weight as it is always centered. I have seen these techniques done with speed and precision, and will tell you the power that is generated is frightening at the same time the control that he demonstrates is heartstopping, as though someone pointed a gun at you and pulled the trigger without you knowing it is not loaded.

[C.J.Wang]

I met Choi in person in 2000 at his school outside of Chicago. He had a hunch back then even when he wasn't practicing.

Choi sifu didn't know you, C.J. His body was prepared for anything at that point, I'm sure. He's always aware, and prepared for anything with new people he's not certain of. <<shrug>> He doesn't have a "hunch back". He relaxes his body, and prepares for whatever comes his way. With those of us he knows, and trusts his posture is different. More "normal". He came from a different Hong Kong, folks. A *lot* rougher than what's seen now. That environment influences you after having fought through it.

Well, it's not like I showed up with a challenge letter written in blood or anything. I went to observe a class with two of my friends, and had a short but pleasant conversation with him in a combination of English, Cantonese, and Mandarin.

My remark wasn't meant as a personal attack. The point I was trying to make was that masters -- no matter how skilled they are -- are humans too, and, as humans, we all age. And age takes its toll on the body with negative effects on one's muscle tone, strength, flexibility, and bone density -- factors that can all cause an elderly individual's posture to become more forward-leaning and hunched. So instead of putting an aging master's form under the microscope, analyzing every single detail, and trying to justify that everything he does is correct, perfect, and for good reasons, sometimes we should just accept the fact that most senior masters above the age of 65 simply no longer possess the physical fitness required to show all the forms they teach with 100% precisions. Can they show refined motions and skills with decades of practice under their belt? Yes. But low and extended postures required to open up the joints and build skills? Not likely.

I've met people in their 20s and 30s who try to learn from 70, 80-year-old masters by copying the ways they practice their "old-man" forms with terrible results. Beginners should learn the way their masters practiced the forms in their youth. Not when they are old with arthritis in their knees, herniated discs, and walking sticks.

[WongYing]

Wanderingdragon,

Based on the video performance, what is just shown here, in my opinion Wai Lun Choi looks awfull, that is simply based on what is shown on that video at that time. As it show nothing else, it still looks awfull, I have not seen any other footage of Wai Lun Choi, so can only make observations based on his awfull hunchbacked demonstration.

By implying all be it subtle that people here have untrained eyes you are making personal attacks based on your opinion, so gwok si gwok fat.

Compared to a number of other older practioners of LHBF that I have seen, who have applicable combat skills and can use their system as effectively as you suggest Wai Lun Choi can, I still dont like what Wai Lun Choi is doing. But you know I am ok with a differing of opinions, so chill and don't sweat it man

[Strange]

a yang taiqi master saw my lhbf and pronounced it external
i just smile

[Overlord]

:)
a yang taiqi master saw my lhbf and pronounced it external
i just smile

man...they have no ideas what they are saying sometimes....
Smile is Really the best reply.....

Over

[Wanderingdragon]

Brother Wong , I appreciate your response as well, as opinions are personal, and I have seen the man at 70, and know the reality ,I simply say again , with a Master possessed of legendary skill, allow the legend.