systema internal power question

[Ian]

hi.

can anyone please tell me what's the difference between internal power as displayed by proficient internal stylists and this kind of movement?





not trying to stir things up, just curious.

cheers

[Dr.Rob]

No...now go back to your room.

[Wanderingdragon]

All leverage, not built on any specific structure.

[C.J.Wang]

Well, the clips show certain aspects of IMA with a coorperative partner.

[GhostPalm]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Hgzfikd ... re=related
Here's another internal master of similar calibre.

[Ian]

thanks for the replies.

All leverage, not built on any specific structure.

let's just say I have no idea what internal power is. do you have an example of it? iirc you're an ilc guy, or am I totally wrong about that?

[Wanderingdragon]

You are totally wrong, I am a fight guy, and though this will come off as a total cop out there is no example of internal power that can be shown adequately on video, it can only be felt, just as I have a hard time believing magic acts on TV. The greatest, most credible example of internal power that I can bring to mind is Tibetan Monks drying wet towels in the Himalayas during naked meditation. But a twisted aem is a twisted arm no matter how you look at it. If you will excuse my arrogance at the beginning , the Art I study is LHBF, and no I don't suggest that I have any great Internal skills.

[Ian]

no I don't think you were being arrogant, and even if I did, I don't have time to be angry on the net

there is no example of internal power that can be shown adequately on video, it can only be felt

if internal power can only really be felt and not seen, how can you tell just by looking that the above two gents have no internal power? and if you can tell, then it must follow that you can tell for other clips as well.

at any rate I'd be interested to see some clips if you can think of any.

----------------------

anyone else?

this is not a systema > everything else thread. I am genuinely curious.

interloper, upyu, dan, wvmark?

dr. fish, ashe, the uk guys etc.?

I think I just suck at starting topics

[Wanderingdragon]

To humor you , this clip was part of a series posted quite recently, the structure and use of the body in his movement and technique are fairly indicative of fine internal study
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oCMDO9D ... re=related

[dtactics]

To humor you , this clip was part of a series posted quite recently, the structure and use of the body in his movement and technique are fairly indicative of fine internal study
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oCMDO9D ... re=related

That guy's good. Really good!

Ian,

Both Vlad and Mikhail have internal power. There's a magnetism to their body (hyper-relaxed state) which draws you out of your center. Couple that with their expert and subtle usage of bio-mechanics and the stuff starts to look fake to the uninitiated. You can only appreciate it when you feel them. Having said that Mikhail gets away with more absurd ukemi (encourages it too much in my view) because folks are plain scared of him. He has no problem turning up the tap up as necessary and even when not. It's his whole "I won't be to kind to you" principle. Vlad's more playful (to a point) but it's clear when he wants to get more "professional". I've not yet felt Sergei but have heard and seen very good things from him. He's built like a tank.

[Upyu]

no I don't think you were being arrogant, and even if I did, I don't have time to be angry on the net

there is no example of internal power that can be shown adequately on video, it can only be felt

if internal power can only really be felt and not seen, how can you tell just by looking that the above two gents have no internal power? and if you can tell, then it must follow that you can tell for other clips as well.
<snip>

interloper, upyu, dan, wvmark?

dr. fish, ashe, the uk guys etc.?

I think I just suck at starting topics

Woo...what a can of worms
I'll take a stab at it though.

First you'd need to clarify what you mean by "Internal" power/strength etc.
1) There's a distinct usage and development of the middle/dantien area as a control point that's immediately obvious in the Chen Style, Sam Chin, Li tai liang, etc etc.
2) Then there's the usage of opening/closing of the major joints,
3) Usage of the chest dantien area in some styles (some may favor this as a control over the usage of the middle dantien)
4) Then there's six directional stretching, allowing one to constantly maintain equilibrium (the stretch obtained by pushing the top of the head while letting the spine hang is one contradiction)
5) Breath training which is used to develop 1) and 2) which lead to 6)

6) All of the above lead to a certain kind of "elastic" connection in the body, (this is probably conditioned fascia, but that's anyone's guess). This conditioning support the absorbing of forces, along with generation of power using elements from the 5 points mentioned above.
It's also what allows the 90+ year old bagua dude seen on youtube to do the tricks that he does. This conditioning results in two kinds of elastic "windings" that run through the body. It's also why, as someone mentioned in another thread, you see Karate guys do Sanchin the way they do.

7) Specific usage of the body that allows you to absorb an incoming force down to the ground, and use the reflected normal force to be expressed through the upper body. (Whether you use the actual middle or chest middle is irrelevant for the purposes of this talk)


The 7 points mentioned above are really generalities, and there's more that could probably be mentioned, but I think it's a fair start.

So taking those 7 points, can they be seen?
Yes, especially if you have a bit of the skill yourself and you know what to look for. The conditioning/elastic quality jumps out immediately. What part the person uses as a "control" is also obvious. So it's also obvious if something is "not there."

Getting back to Systema though.
Vlad probably has a nice "up down" contradiction, coupled with usage of the chest middle, which he opens and closes. This in itself gets pretty friggin powerful if you condition it enough. Having done systema myself for a year, enough to get aquainted on a cursory degree, the breathing coupled with the pushups/squats in slo-mo probably lead to tissue/fascia development which help to transmit power efficiently (and probably what give them that magnetic pull and allow for the various psychological tricks). If it is there, then it probably adds an extra oomph to the punches. Usage of the chest middle as a fulcrum allows them to be mobile...

What probably sets them apart from Asian IMAs,
They don't use 7) (more commonly known as Jin skills), nor do they develop the middle area to the degree that you see in Asian MAs. The development of the middle, by the way, opens up a host of movements/skills that are simply unavailable otherwise.
Does it make them "inferior?"
No, not at all. But I certainly wouldn't confuse them as having the same things as Asian MAs.

What it boils down to is that the while there are overlapping elements (which is kind of a no-brainer, they're people, we're people, its inevitable that overlap would happen) the conditioning/usage are, for the most part different.)

And yes, internal power/skill can be seen (according to the seven points listed above) and its painfully obvious when certain points are lacking.

[Bhassler]

I would suggest that while there are preferences for particular movement strategies that are specific to particular styles or families of styles, the underlying quality of efficient whole body movement is the same. I would further suggest that it is impossible to control others as thoroughly and dynamically as the instructors are controlling the students in the above videos without equal or greater control of oneself. Therefore, I say that while there may be technical differences as far as specific methodology, a good systema guy could easily pick up the mechanics of bagua or taiji, and vice versa. The candles may be shaped a bit differently, but it's all from the same ball of wax.

[gosao]

I would say if your definition of "internal power" is simply very subtle and refined movement and power generation then internal power is available to practitioners of all arts at the higher levels. But if you are talking about strictly Chinese martial arts, the Chinese have seemed to split the way's of power generation to internal and external styles. Neijia and Waijia. The way to neijia "taichi, bagua, hsing I" power generation is developing they type of martial body outlined by Upyu earlier. Systema practitioners have refined power but not the same kind of power that you'll see from neijia experts. What I see from those clips is some pretty good refined relaxed movement where the practitioners make good use of baiting, leading, and redirection of the other persons attention and awareness. Leading opponents to emptiness and or being stuck and doing what's needed to take best advantage of the opponents unbalanced or stuck state. All great stuff but not necessarily neijia type power.

[Upyu]

Therefore, I say that while there may be technical differences as far as specific methodology, a good systema guy could easily pick up the mechanics of bagua or taiji, and vice versa.

While I agree, there's overlap, that statement above I think is just completely off-base.
Let's assume that Vlad doesn't have a middle that's conditioned, or articulate enough to act as a control, which is required for bagua, taiji etc. That means that even if he mimics the movements, he wouldn't be doing taiji, bagua etc.
Non withstanding the fact that another big factor is that they definitely don't have a winding connection throughout the body. (That's not a put down btw, they never developed it, but they still make use of other attributes very nicely within their system).

It's kind of like removing the innards out of a Ferrari, replacing it with, say a Porche, and then saying that the Ferrari will handle just like it did before.
There's a fundamental difference in how the body is developed, even if there are certain portions that overlap.
Saying that the overlap indicates that everything is "all the same" is also like saying, "well a Lamborghini and Mercedes are essentially the same because they both have an engine and transmission together with four wheels and a braking system."

There's actually much more in common between the "External" and "Internal" approaches.
Even though you can't simply take an "external" approach, place it in an "Internal" framework and expect the same results.

[Iskendar]

What probably sets them apart from Asian IMAs,
They don't use 7) (more commonly known as Jin skills), nor do they develop the middle area to the degree that you see in Asian MAs. The development of the middle, by the way, opens up a host of movements/skills that are simply unavailable otherwise.

Great explanation. One typical visual characteristic of Systema is that it's very chest-centric, in a strangely sophisticated way. Motion seems to start from the upper torso and whips throughout the body, very similar to how a Chen stylist would use his lower dantian. The upper torso almost seems to float in the air with the lower body hanging off it, which is very different from what you see in IMA, a visual image of the legs as a rock-solid platform steered by the middle, upon which the torso rests (hence the image of 'sitting' in your stance).

One caveat though: there's Systema, and then there's Vlad. I don't practice Systema, and I've only seen Vlad once at a seminar, but a that time he showed and taught a typical IMA demo betraying great middle development: absorbing a punch to the stomach and bouncing it back, hurting the attacker's wrist. Not bracing or pressurizing, but basically a peng-lu-ji-an cycle: absorbing and redirecting the force, then snapping it back, all with his abdomen. I realize this is only the engine, and it doesn't prove he also has the optimal transmission for it (7: heel to fingertip windings throughout the body), but it shows that there's more to Vlad than to the typical Systema practitioner (duh!).