systema internal power question

[Ian]

Wanderingdragon, thanks for the clip.

Ian,

Both Vlad and Mikhail have internal power. There's a magnetism to their body (hyper-relaxed state) which draws you out of your center. Couple that with their expert and subtle usage of bio-mechanics and the stuff starts to look fake to the uninitiated. You can only appreciate it when you feel them. Having said that Mikhail gets away with more absurd ukemi (encourages it too much in my view) because folks are plain scared of him. He has no problem turning up the tap up as necessary and even when not. It's his whole "I won't be to kind to you" principle. Vlad's more playful (to a point) but it's clear when he wants to get more "professional". I've not yet felt Sergei but have heard and seen very good things from him. He's built like a tank.

Interesting. It's as I thought.

First you'd need to clarify what you mean by "Internal" power/strength etc.
1) There's a distinct usage and development of the middle/dantien area as a control point that's immediately obvious in the Chen Style, Sam Chin, Li tai liang, etc etc.
2) Then there's the usage of opening/closing of the major joints,
3) Usage of the chest dantien area in some styles (some may favor this as a control over the usage of the middle dantien)
4) Then there's six directional stretching, allowing one to constantly maintain equilibrium (the stretch obtained by pushing the top of the head while letting the spine hang is one contradiction)
5) Breath training which is used to develop 1) and 2) which lead to 6)
6) All of the above lead to a certain kind of "elastic" connection in the body, (this is probably conditioned fascia, but that's anyone's guess). This conditioning support the absorbing of forces, along with generation of power using elements from the 5 points mentioned above.
...
7) Specific usage of the body that allows you to absorb an incoming force down to the ground, and use the reflected normal force to be expressed through the upper body. (Whether you use the actual middle or chest middle is irrelevant for the purposes of this talk)

First, thanks for the detailed reply. Especially the 7 points.

Re: points 2-7, IMO those are clearly in systema. Yes, including point 7, which should be present in a systema practitioner if he does the solo stuff consistently and correctly.

Granted, I haven't seen any dantian-development drills in systema, so I'd say that point #1 is absent. We have other drills for that area, but I doubt anyone's interested.

I don't know how you guys trained systema in Japan so I can't really comment, but e.g. stuff like this, which I've seen cited on this forum as an IP test, is almost exactly the same as what we do:



Koichi Tohei's relaxed, unbendable arm trick can be found being performed by high-level systema guys.

Also, to my untrained eye this wave stuff...



...looks practically the same as some of the stuff I've seen Ark doing.

I mean clearly Ark and Vladimir move differently, but is that an IP/no-IP difference or just a stylistic difference? Is IP in the training methodology or the quality of movement? If the same quality of movement can be produced using different training methods, is it not IP?

Anyway fair point about people fixating on similarities and missing the differences. That's why I don't limit myself to one style

PM sent!

[Upyu]

Re: points 2-7, IMO those are clearly in systema. Yes, including point 7, which should be present in a systema practitioner if he does the solo stuff consistently and correctly.

Granted, I haven't seen any dantian-development drills in systema, so I'd say that point #1 is absent. We have other drills for that area, but I doubt anyone's interested.

I don't know how you guys trained systema in Japan so I can't really comment, but e.g. stuff like this, which I've seen cited on this forum as an IP test, is almost exactly the same as what we do:



Koichi Tohei's relaxed, unbendable arm trick can be found being performed by high-level systema guys.

Also, to my untrained eye this wave stuff...



...looks practically the same as some of the stuff I've seen Ark doing.

I mean clearly Ark and Vladimir move differently, but is that an IP/no-IP difference or just a stylistic difference? Is IP in the training methodology or the quality of movement? If the same quality of movement can be produced using different training methods, is it not IP?

Hey Ian,

First off just wanted to say you bring up some good points.
Concerning 7), when they practiced it in Tokyo they never practiced grounding a force.
But there's also grounding, combined with the upper body moving off a stable base, then there's using the grounded force, reflecting it off the ground and passing it up to the upper body.
I've never felt Vlad, so I can't comment on whether he does or doesn't have it. Looking at the vids it doesn't look like he uses it though.
To be honest it's not too difficult at all and can be shown in about half an hour if someone good shows you, but it is kind of a "woah you can use the body that way?" kind of skill.

The relaxed unbendable arm trick is something I really hate. Mainly because you can do it a number of ways.
You could do it using the "tissue/stretch connection," or you could use "Jin" or you could use a combination of both, or even use NONE of the aforementioned. So you'll understand why that trick gets a little sticky.
Since the unbendable arm trick is based off of Jin/connection, you can get someone to do it with a bit of practice, if you can get them to do basic JIn.

About the youtube vid you posted, I'd lay money on the fact that the mechanic is almost completely different.
That shoulder pop you see most likely relies mostly on the chest, but if you watch, he has a nice axis running from the top of his head to his feet (probably a nice up/down stretch connection) that supports the movement, combined with superior conditioning.

Plus he uses a nice integrated twisting of the hips on some occasions.
Assuming the above is true (and hey I could be wrong!) I haven't seen Ark use them in the vids out there on the net.
Although he will occasionally demonstrate some of those aspects as viable tricks/movements.

[GrahamB]

Also, to my untrained eye this wave stuff...

The effects of what he's doing seem to be almost identical to the effects of "pull down" (also sometimes called "shock" or "short power") from Tai Chi, as far as I understand it.

The difference between what Vlad is doing and Tai Chi? Well, it's a tough question, because I the result seems to be identical! But I think if you look closely at the first part of the clip, what he's doing is that it's coming from a very relaxed shoulder, whereas in Tai Chi you'd be generating that movement from the dan tien area, with the shoulder acting more as a transmitter, rather than a generator of power. In the second part of the clip he's kind of flicking his hips to do the same thing (I think) via a kind of whiplash effect. Again, that's slightly different.

Vlad definitely looks like he's made out of rubber!

[Wanderingdragon]

I have always felt that systema would be a great adjunct to training softness and sinsitivity in IA

[middleway]

Vlad definitely looks like he's made out of rubber!

Vlad has something special in this respect. He can move each part of his body independently and with power. A tough thing to do. Also he has a pre-emptive ability i aint come across elsewhere.

As far as IP vs not ... god knows lol ... only met him once.

chris

[dtactics]

This guy's pretty pre-emptive too-

VV Systema's principles are similar to Koichi Tohei's principles:
Systema-
1. Breath
2. Relaxation
3. Form
4. Movement

Aikido-
1. Keep one point (Breath)
2. Relaxation
3. Weight underside (Form)
4. Extend Ki (Movement)

As for Aikido's parlor trick of the unbendable arm, I place it right up there against Systema's strike absorption. Neither is a big deal once you know how it's done. They both require trust in the principles and any fear or doubt will sabotage them.

When you can reach a state where you're no longer startled or immobilized by the attack, internal power, pliancy and creativity can be accessed. Unfortunately, such a state is next to impossible to maintain in a real confrontation. The recent Throwdown with Vlad's top guy Frank Arias reveals how difficult even under slight duress. Though he now claims the situation wasn't real enough for Systema to truly reveal itself, we've all heard that tune before.

That's why I'm a huge fan of Kevin Secours. He constantly works on all aspects of his game and travels the world to seek out the best teachers.

[BrianK]

Ryabhko's movement quality and the way he controls students reminds me of film I've seen of Wang Shu Jin. My teacher says his movement reminds him of his sifu, which is high praise from my teacher. And that thing systema guys do where they have a heavy quality in the upper body with a lightness below reminds me a great deal of what us Chinese Boxing guys strive for (probably derived primarily from our bagua). I have no problem calling systema an IMA. It's closer to the nei jia family than it is to any other category of martial arts.

Brian

[eddie mush]

[quote="dtactics"]This guy's pretty pre-emptive too-


2:29 - 2:40 what is that for, anyone?

thanks Martin

[Andy_S]

You won't ever find two experts (or novices) agreeing on what internal power is, which is a problem, as if you can't define it and understand it, how can you train it? We are talking a body mechanic here, and we can all understand how boxers, for eg, use torque to generate punching power, how sprinters are trained to run faster, etc.

Upyu nails it down better than I could, but I'd say internal power is a combination of:
- Maximal relaxation, permitting optimal speed AND optimal sensitivity;
- Optimally positioned skeletal structure (tissues are more problematic)
- Efficient lower belly or full torso breathing
- Moving from the center/dantien (related to the above)
- Linking the entire body in a chain of force
- Moving in circles or spirals: a screw rather than a nail, a corkscrew rather than a pull

All the above requires very detailed layers of training, which means it is difficult to get.

Then we have the issue of the USE of internal power, and two of the key concepts here are advanced understanding of leverage and - IMHO, the most important of all IP useage characteristics - the ability to flow and change, rather than powering through or getting "stuck" in a technique: Lead, follow and flow around restistance.

Other attributes - courage, timing, durability, etc, - are as important to any form of fighting as they are to IP. So IP cannot be divorced from EP.

Personally, I think IP in use is an ideal concept, and humans never achieve perfection, which is why when we (rarely) see IMA masters fight, their structure and alignments, etc, do not really approach what they do in forms. This is why IP is so rare and so difficult to use.

In terms of most of the above, I would say that Systema masters have IP, bar, perhaps the dantien work and the spiralling and circularity.

OTOH, I think in terms of usage: Their positioning, leverage, range of technique - and most particularly, their efficiency and flow - are light years beyond most IMA masters.

[Upyu]

VV Systema's principles are similar to Koichi Tohei's principles:
Systema-
1. Breath
2. Relaxation
3. Form
4. Movement

Aikido-
1. Keep one point (Breath)
2. Relaxation
3. Weight underside (Form)
4. Extend Ki (Movement)

While I haven't studied under the Ki-society, I'd still have to disagree with that opening quote.
1. Keep one point - most likely refers to using the middle, and not necessarily just breathing. Breathing is just a way to access the skill. Once you acquire it you can throw the breath part away. Or you can continue to use it to strengthen the surrounding musculature.

3. Refers to taking the force in the crotch/legs, and less to do with structure. In fact, you can keep "weight" underside with "bad form," once you know "how" to do it

4. Extend Ki - Has less to do with movement, than with engaging the "stretch" throughout the body that binds everything together. Kind of like if someone tells you to brace against an imaginary 100 mph wind, coming from all sides.

When you can reach a state where you're no longer startled or immobilized by the attack, internal power, pliancy and creativity can be accessed. Unfortunately, such a state is next to impossible to maintain in a real confrontation. The recent Throwdown with Vlad's top guy Frank Arias reveals how difficult even under slight duress. Though he now claims the situation wasn't real enough for Systema to truly reveal itself, we've all heard that tune before.

I dunno, I've seen Frank move, and well... the conditioning that is obvious in Vlad isn't obvious in Frank.
For myself Internal power/conditioning is not a "state of mind" - for the most part. A large part of it simply involves rewiring how your body works, and how you operate your body fundamentally.
Hell, how I open a door, window or lift a glass is completely different from how I used to do it 3 years ago.
Even under duress, a fair bit of it remains...mostly because it has to do with sheer physical conditioning. Conditioning of the body doesn't fall away just because your tired. Ark actually does a fair bit of anaerobic K.I.S.S. (keep it simple stupid) mitt work with us, which kicks your ass in about 1-2 minutes, and after that it's up to your conditioning to hold you up, and you can measure how much of it is actually "sticking." That kind of training is never pleasant but absolutely necessary...and something I think few people actually do (bar of course guys that regularly enter comps).
If you have enough conditioning, winding, absorbing, etc etc, all the stuff you'd think takes a lot of "concentration" etc simply comes out...because that's how the body's been conditioned to give and take force.

[dtactics]

I did train with Ki-society and those are only my simplifications of their fundamentals. There were more like "Perform with confidence etc." but that was the gist of it. Tohei made it easy by saying if you have one of those principles down, you'd have them all and vice versa. They weren't to be taken literally (how do you reduce one point back to the universe?) but were used in guiding the student to a more relaxed state of breath (ki) mobility and balance.. just like Systema.

Ark actually does a fair bit of anaerobic K.I.S.S. (keep it simple stupid) mitt work with us, which kicks your ass in about 1-2 minutes, and after that it's up to your conditioning to hold you up, and you can measure how much of it is actually "sticking." That kind of training is never pleasant but absolutely necessary...and something I think few people actually do (bar of course guys that regularly enter comps).
If you have enough conditioning, winding, absorbing, etc etc, all the stuff you'd think takes a lot of "concentration" etc simply comes out...because that's how the body's been conditioned to give and take force.

It's essential to train in that way to experience the adrenal cocktail swirl and lactic acid's affect on the body. When some trainees first shoot at the academy in a "Hogan's Alley" simunitions type environment, they believe their pistol's trigger is either malfunctioning/stuck or progressively getting heavier after around 40 rounds of rapid succession firing. This phenomenon stems from excessive tension in the trigger pull under anxiety filled duress. The lactic acids shuts down the trigger finger making the gun feel locked up when it is the trainee who's in fact ceasing up.

[Upyu]

I did train with Ki-society and those are only my simplifications of their fundamentals. There were more like "Perform with confidence etc." but that was the gist of it. Tohei made it easy by saying if you have one of those principles down, you'd have them all and vice versa. They weren't to be taken literally (how do you reduce one point back to the universe?) but were used in guiding the student to a more relaxed state of breath (ki) mobility and balance.. just like Systema.

Well, reading the original Japanese, I think the English translation leaves a lot to be desired. The actual Japanese seems more specific, and points to more common admonishments found in I.S.

That part about "one point" is more literally "sink the heart/mind down into the seika no itten/(quite literally a point in the tanden)."
It's referring to a specific point in a physical location. Having the "heart mind" concentrate on the area is common throughout Indian, Chinese and Japanese MAs, and doesn't necessarily mean simply be "aware" of something.
One way to say it would be relax and gather the pressure down into the tanden and keep it compressed there, but using a certain amount of relaxation, which would induce the stretch of the skin. (Hence I wouldn't totally quibble with your translation of Ki as breath, but it's incomplete).
Based on vids of Tohei exhibiting a respectable amount of down-force which generally is developed through reverse breathing, I'd say it's a fair bet that he was also referring to the effect of that that kind of breath-training has on the body, where it draws the skin tight across the body, conditioning it, and unifying it as well.


And that's only about one-point. Which is why when I hear that those 4 points were only to guide someone to a "more relaxed state of breath, mobility and balance, " and further to say that it's just like Systema...I'd have to disagree. They were actually specific guidelines for practicing I.S. The mechanics at work as described by Tohei, and by Systema are different.
On that note, I'd say that saying Systema shares the same kind of "relaxed state of breath, mobility and balance" with CMA is like saying the "relax" in basketball is the same as "relax" in Taiji. It's just not the same.

Having said that, I probably would've agreed with you about 5 years ago. It's just that when you start to actually get a bit of conditioning, the logic becomes obvious.

[Bhassler]

First you'd need to clarify what you mean by "Internal" power/strength etc.
1) There's a distinct usage and development of the middle/dantien area as a control point that's immediately obvious in the Chen Style, Sam Chin, Li tai liang, etc etc.
2) Then there's the usage of opening/closing of the major joints,
3) Usage of the chest dantien area in some styles (some may favor this as a control over the usage of the middle dantien)
4) Then there's six directional stretching, allowing one to constantly maintain equilibrium (the stretch obtained by pushing the top of the head while letting the spine hang is one contradiction)
5) Breath training which is used to develop 1) and 2) which lead to 6)
6) All of the above lead to a certain kind of "elastic" connection in the body, (this is probably conditioned fascia, but that's anyone's guess). This conditioning support the absorbing of forces, along with generation of power using elements from the 5 points mentioned above.
...
7) Specific usage of the body that allows you to absorb an incoming force down to the ground, and use the reflected normal force to be expressed through the upper body. (Whether you use the actual middle or chest middle is irrelevant for the purposes of this talk)

Upyu nails it down better than I could, but I'd say internal power is a combination of:
- Maximal relaxation, permitting optimal speed AND optimal sensitivity;
- Optimally positioned skeletal structure (tissues are more problematic)
- Efficient lower belly or full torso breathing
- Moving from the center/dantien (related to the above)
- Linking the entire body in a chain of force
- Moving in circles or spirals: a screw rather than a nail, a corkscrew rather than a pull

I would consider these lists more characteristics of internal strength rather than internal strength itself. The best definition of internal strength I've come up with is the efficient dynamic skeletal transmission of force. All the other characteristics are prerequisites or emerge out of that. So by my own definition I would say that yes, good systema guys have it.

[Upyu]

I would consider these lists more characteristics of internal strength rather than internal strength itself. The best definition of internal strength I've come up with is the efficient dynamic skeletal transmission of force. All the other characteristics are prerequisites or emerge out of that. So by my own definition I would say that yes, good systema guys have it.

Then we're in disagreement here, because I'd say those lists describe part of what needs to be done to achieve I.S., as opposed to being characteristics, and I'd say that the definition you've come up (the following isn't a slam btw, I'm just disagreeing with you and making a statement) with is much too general, not to mention lacking half the picture. There's another force that is generated by the tissue, that doesn't rely too much on the actual skeletal structure. Actually there's a series of "SJT" (Stupid Jin Tricks) that show that you can be completely out of structure, but still able to absorb and produce force, providing you have Qi/Jin skills.
Skeletal alignment is only part of the picture, and if you ask me, more of a subset to the whole she-bang.

[Bhassler]

I would expect most people to disagree with me, and that's fine. You can transmit force through bones in tension as well as compression, and all the SJT I've seen would fall under that category.

Notice that I made no mention whatsoever of how the force is generated, only how it is transmitted. Certain methods of generating force are more efficient at creating useable power without inhibiting the free movement of the skeleton, which is partly why I said dynamic skeletal transmission of force, rather than simply skeletal transmission.

As far as the lists, I don't disagree that they may be part of what needs to be done to achieve I.S., but that's not I.S. itself. To go back to your own car analogy, you can say a ferrari has four wheels, and a powerful engine, and a ferrari logo-- which are necessary to a ferrari--but that doesn't really give a sense of what a ferrari is. A better description might be that a ferrari "is a ridiculously fast and expensive and luxurious Italian street legal racecar. "