Chen Taiji ala Adam Hsu/KurtWong/Paolo Line

[Bob]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VO6ydhv- ... re=related



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_-tTnto ... re=channel



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mcp_vMII ... re=related

Note that I'm a new beginner, and that I play the form tooo fast to try and fit the hole form in under 3 minutes (3 minutes being the time limit for this competition I attended last year).



Other things:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmFaXDZT ... re=channel

This is a take of a not to serious practice.....
..but I had fun makeing it, so I put it out.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VBbYuXp ... re=channel

Just a note..... At this stage I had just learned this forms and I am actually trying to remember the pattern as I go. It can show in the way I play it... but I decided to put it out never the less.

The music is ripped from the grate band Faith no more, and I'm kind of hoping they wont rip my head off about it!
Find out more about
FAITH NO MORE AT:




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YGvzzPE ... re=channel

A second vid of a practice outside school. Here we play around whit more applications and practice forms. Forms that is practiced here is Pao quan (long fist), and xiao hu yen (praying mantis). The applications are random from different styles.

The music on here is kind of different from what I have used before. This is just a taste from the band I used to play for... a long long time ago.
The band is called MORGUL and is still going stong in the music business. Check out more killer music on http://www.myspace.com

Remember that this vid is made just for the fun of it, and is not to be taken that seriously!!

[Hakkesho]

Hello,

Just a few comments, only on the Chen Taiji: Very "baijiesque" performance and to be honest, not much of Chen style flavour... This should be the old frame from Du Yuzhe but, I cannot see much of it in this video. Shenfa is rather sloppy and the fajin is, well...

[stan baker]

chen taiji is internal martial art, that looked like external kungfu

stan

[Bob]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X06JcEbg ... re=related

Chen Laojia Yilu form demonstrated by Du Yu Ze, student of Chen Yanxi (father of Chen Fake). Master Du is 79 years old when the clip is made



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmICiJHT ... re=related

Adam Hsu performing movements from Hu Lei Jia (Thunder Style) Chen Taiji in the 1970s. Master Hsu learned from Tu Yu Ze.

[Bob]

This would be a archetypal flavor of baji along the Li Shu Wen/Liu Yun Qiao:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9-jge2Wk4k



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FG6GtPWhHZM



At a slow pace, is this the flavor your are speaking to?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRIDAT4R ... annel_page



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7o-C8Pv ... annel_page

[bruce]

chen taiji is internal martial art, that looked like external kungfu

stan

stan

what is the difference in "internal" martial art and "external" kungfu?

[Hakkesho]

Bob,

I a aware that Adam Hsu learned from Du Yuzhe, waht I meant is that in the clip from the italian guy and even the one from Adam Hsu, you can clearly see the Baiji influence.

Best

Michael

[Bob]

First, Michael, let me say that I respect your right to express what you feel you see. However, by stating that this is baji flavor it A) presupposes that a beginner, as stated in his clip, has a baji flavor---it is kinda of like saying by simply playing baji you have the baji flavor and therefore, in my thinking, bleaches out or levels the difficulty of attaining a true baji flavor and B) there really aren't many clips to ascertain what Du's flavor was really like---he is 79 in the clip and the other one is pao tui shot from a distance at a Taiwan Lion's Club meeting.

Also, if you think about Adam Hsu's foundational training it might just as legitimate to say that his baji, taiii etc. are all flavored by his long fist foundational practice and therefore what you in his students are not really a baji flavor---I guess operationally I don't know precisely what a baji flavor is---that is why I put the clips up.

Compare the clips I put up with Chen Qing Zhou and most other Chen players, i.e. Chen Yu. Which one has the Chen flavor? I think that the Norwegian Chen player in the first clip appears closer in flavor to Chen Qing Zhou than it does baji. I also have a clip of Du's student somewhere playing yi lu and it is very much in line with what Adam and others play.

But ultimately I understand that we each have our opinions and I am okay with that---there are students of Adam Hsu that clearly deviate from his flavor and I am 110% sure that Adam Hsu would applaud that.

[Bob]

Okay here is a clip of one of Du's students or a student of Du's disciples. I know hard core Chen players who would argue that this is not Chen flavor either:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbGYv5mi ... re=channel

[Andy_S]

Bob:

Chen flavour or not, I would say that that they guy in the last clip just not very good at this Taiji form. He does not shift weight fully in numberous moves, he is not very flexible, his fajing lacks snap, there is little chansujin quality in his movements (esp lower body) etc.

I would guess from the clip that Du's stuff was what we now call xiaojia, rather than the more commonly seen dajia (laojia and xinjia).

[Hakkesho]

Bob,

I am not a Baiji specialist and I respect Adam Hsu.From the little I know about Du Yuzhe, he only had 4 indoor disciples and therefore, they should be the ones who have learned the most or at least the ones who look alike Du. The last video you posted should be a student of Wang Jia xiang, Du's first disciple in Gaoxiong. I think that you can get a pretty good idea of Du Yuzhe's laojia by taking a look at Tu Zongren's vids. He was among Du's disciples.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0IUlyCSnac

My modest opinion

Michael

[Hakkesho]

Andy,

Du was special in the sense that he learned dajia from chen yanxi and xiaojia from chen mingbiao, but his students in taiwan are from my understanding more keen on the dajia.

[Andy_S]

Hakkesho:

Intersting to hear that. Did he (Du) blended the two into one form of his own making...?

[Bob]

Hakkesho---since this is internet and it is difficult to get a feel of each other let me state that if you and I were discussing this it would be over, fish head stew and a beer in one my favorite restaurants in Cleveland, Bo Long [Bao Long]. I don't want to sound overly pedantic and intellectually poised---this is just an interesting take.

Tu Tzongren

Tu Tzongren from Taipeh, Taiwan learned many different martial arts as a youth. In the age of17 he learned Yang style taijiquan. Later he learned Chen style taijiquan form Master Du Yuzhi. Together with Wang Jiaxing, Li Haochen and Tsao Delin he became an official successor of Master Du Yuzhi. His thirst for knowledge for Chen taijiquan lead him to Chenjiagou (birthplace of taijiquan), where he practices Dalaojia and Daxinjia (old and new style of the large frame) with Chen Xiaoxing since 1992 Tu Tzongren, who is an official representative of the Chenjiagou Taijiquan in Taiwan, is also experienced in chinese acupuncture for many years now

http://www.die-pagode.de/HTML%20englisc ... achers.htm

Frankly, I am not sure, at this time, Master Tu Tzongren would be respresentative of Master Du's flavor.

Let me also be quite honest, even about myself---basically I know the frameworks from Du Yu Ze and Wong Meng Bi through the eyes of Liu Yun Qiao and Tony Yang. When we say there is baji in the Chen's taiji we practice we do not literally put baji postures in.

In our line, without the da qiang training of baji, the baji frames have little or no baji flavor---so our jibengong training i.e. stance work, heng haa breathing, da qiang training, nei gong, and believe it or not, our push hands comes out of the baji foundation. So in no way are we experts in Chen's taiji nor should anyone in my school under Tony Yang make such claims.

It is this energy that gets expressed in the Chen structure---without this training, and it requires substantial time beyond the beginners level, no baji flavor will be seen in the forms---it might be something else but not whatever baji flavor is.

I am also a bit overly sensitive to the charge we put baji into everything---I hear it about our praying mantis, especially our bagua, our taiji--under Tony Yang, I have been with him since 1988, the systems are taught distinctively separate and not mixed---so yes much of our jiben gong is of a baji orientation but long before students get deep enough into baji they are also trained in some of the jiben gong of say praying mantis---

I think baji sets a very good foundation for the practice of Chen's taiji but for real refinement and expertise, one would have to train under a Chen lineage holder or students with indepth knowledge of the system. Years ago, someone in the line did a study of all the jings between baji and Chen's taijiquan---they all overlap but there are a few that are different from Chen.

Cheers with a smile and big gulp of beer while we tear into the fish head and dou fu. LOL

[Bob]

I don't mean to sound senile or repetitive but look at the Chen's taijiquan from 2:06 mark---baji flavor? Not in temp and rhythm. Fajing, baji or Chen? I can't tell the difference. Chen flavor or rhythm? Probably not.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHiRqDjTGPw



I once ask for comments on this from Chen's perspective--not as a challenge, not to be argumentative, but to explore where differences and similarities lie. [that is my reference to senility]

The above clip is Damon Hwang when he was young. Do you think if he broke the Chen executions along the lines of how he broke the slowed baji executions [2002,2005] that the version of Chen's would be an improvement? Definitely baji flavor?

Here is just an old clip of Liu's first disciple, Dr. Leung of Boston, demonstrating pao chuei.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLfnCflP ... re=related



Just a side note, Dr. Leung and my own teacher, Tony Yang, went to Master Du's home, once a week, for about 3 years, to learn Chen's taijiquan at the suggestion of Liu Yun Qiao.