Chen Taiji ala Adam Hsu/KurtWong/Paolo Line

[Bob]

You see, in this first clip, I don't think the practitioner has had enough deep time into the baji system for it to have a "distinct baji flavor".

I think this is probably a good representation of what Adam Hsu learned from Du Yu Ze. In my limited sight I think this has strong long fist overlay in the execution of postures.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VO6ydhv- ... re=related

[Hakkesho]

Bob,

Fish head stew and beers sound good to me I like the performance of Dr. Leung.
And for sure, to judge or even give an opinion about somebody, based only on videos is a very risky thing.

Best

Michael

[Formosa Neijia]

His thirst for knowledge for Chen taijiquan lead him to Chenjiagou (birthplace of taijiquan), where he practices Dalaojia and Daxinjia (old and new style of the large frame) with Chen Xiaoxing since 1992 Tu Tzongren, who is an official representative of the Chenjiagou Taijiquan in Taiwan, is also experienced in chinese acupuncture for many years now...Frankly, I am not sure, at this time, Master Tu Tzongren would be respresentative of Master Du's flavor.

I see the arguments never end. An endless circle, eh?

Tu laoshi did learn the laojia and xinjia but he definitely prefers what he learned from Du. He told me so personally. That's not a slight to anyone, just a preference. As to him being representative of Du, who knows? He studied with Du a very long time, he didn't do Yang style for very long, and to my knowledge he didn't do a whole lot of other martial arts other than taiji.

As for Wutan, you can spot them a mile away and they definitely have a distinctive flavor. Arguing over flavors of taiji is like arguing over flavors of ice cream. But we've been here a million times, haven't we?

[Bob]

Indeed the arguments are endless and the initial intent of my discussion was to clarify the often cited assertion that the film clips of the Wutan practitioner has a baji flavor to it. Authentic baji flavor takes years of practice along with a step-by-step curriculum to develop.

As for spotting "Wutan a mile away" even Wutan has its significant variations that lead to a high degree of differentiation; variations on the theme of vanilla ice cream i.e. rocky road, cookies & cream, etc. etc.. Perhaps it would be best if Wu Tan stayed focused on baji/pigua, bagua, mizong and 6 harmony mantis.

My point was to quote from the site of one of Tu's Western disciples in that it would be hard to assess what Du's real flavor was like.

Dietmar Stubenbaum

Chief instructor for Chen Taijiquan Xiaojia in Germany / Switzerland / Austria / Liechtenstein / Luxemburg und Spain.
Dietmar Stubenbaum is a graduated teacher of the "National Taijiquan Association of the Republic of China" and President, co-founder, teacher and German representative of the "International Society of Chen Taijiquan". He studied judo and fencing in his youth and later he came up with karate, aikido and inyo ryu. Because of his passion for martial arts and healing methods from the far east, he travelled to Japan, Taiwan, China and the Philippines and stayed there for several years.
He learnd his Chen style taijiquan dajia (large frame) and xiaojia (small frame) in Taiwan in the taijiquan lineage Chen Yanxi - Du Yuzhi - Tu Zongren and Xiaojia (small frame) in the lineage Chen Chen Mingbiao - Du Yuze - Tu Tzongren

Taijiquan-lineage:

During his research of Chen style taijiquan he met other famous Masters like Chen Xiaowang and Chen Qingzhou. A few years ago he became student of Master Chen Peishan and Master Chen Peiju (lineage of Chen Lixian and Chen Liqing) to focus on the small frame (xiaojia) of Chen style taijiquan.
He learned his xingyiquan from Wu Guangxan (Henan style) and Lo Dexiu (Hebei style). He studied taiji daoyin with Huang Xinlin and gained his skills in Zhenjiu (acupuncture and moxa) from Tu Tzongren. In search for ancient western martial arts he found one of last masters in traditional fencing - Maitre Claude Duprez -with whom he practices different weapon systems. He is also author . . . .
__________________________________________________________________________

As you are aware of Dave, there are also a number of well respected Chen lines that can't recognize the Chen flavor of Du and others in Taiwan, let alone Wutan. There are also a number of interesting stories about Du and his art but it is not my schtick to delve into that and of course, there are some hard feelings between Du's disciples and Adam Hsu and probably Wu Tan in general. But in all fairness, it was Liu that sent his disciples to learn from Du without the intent of co-opting Du's art and claiming it to be Wu Tan.

If I could quote myself, "I think baji sets a very good foundation for the practice of Chen's taiji but for real refinement and expertise, one would have to train under a Chen lineage holder or students with indepth knowledge of the system. Years ago, someone in the line did a study of all the jings between baji and Chen's taijiquan---they all overlap but there are a few that are different from Chen."

I would further add, in apology to my Wu Tan brothers, that our depth of the Chen system is relatively limited. Imagine someone who has trained deeply and is a lineage holder in the Chen system who learned xiao baji and da baji and went on to claim a great depth to the baji system of Li Shu Wen.

Frankly, my Chen days have long passed, fully acknowledging the limitations of my study---although I still practice some of the frames occassionally, my heart has gone elsewhere---for those who desire real depth in the Chen system there are now a ton of lineage holders available---I would tell any Wu Tan practitioner of the Chen's taiji, who really desired depth in the Chen system, to supplement their study with someone from the Chen lineage---Chen Zheng Lei, Chen Xiao Wang, Chen Qing Zhou and his sons, Chen Yu, Chen Zhong Hua, Chen Peiju, the list is almost endless. Charle's teacher in Canada also seems like one helluva teacher to learn the depth of the system from. I don't know many in the states [Frank's group in Philly] but I do know Herb Rich personally and his previous association with Wu Tan would be a great place for Wu Tan people here in the states to extend their Chen practice.

As for Taiwan, I don't know much about the state of Chen's taijiquan there so I would defer to your recommendations, Dave.

[Formosa Neijia]

Bob,
Yeah, no worries from my end either. I haven't had a dog in this fight for years. Just wanted to add that Tu's taiji wasn't heavily influenced by his studies at the village, at least by his own admission. He was fairly open about his preference for Du's material.

BTW, hope all is well with you.

[Bob]

I missed your site for a couple of months---glad to see you on board!

Everything is going well---The University is sponsoring China Week and I have been tied up months in meetings. Wednesday I am introducing a keynote speaker on Confucius---Dr. Annping Chin from Yale---originally from Taiwan---her husband is the historian Jonathon Spence but her scholarship stands on its own---clearly not in the shadow of her husband.

My practice has circled deeper into bagua and some baji da qiang, for now. I've also revisited an old Yang form that Liu taught my teacher---reminds me of a combination of Li, Wu and Yang.

I see you have changed a bit---kettle bells---I hope that works well for you. If I should ever get to Taipei I want to meet with you and share a couple of stories. I have got some old clips of Chen players in Taiwan during the 60s but they are still not mine to disperse---

Take care and keep posting---I often post for the insights a discussion leads to---although somewhat repetitive, it always holds promise of bringing more info.

[Bob]

Oh yeah, I forgot, in the post above, for Chen Yu, Mo_Ling--have not heard much from him lately in the posts on the other site.

[Formosa Neijia]

Bob,
Glad to hear things are going well. By all means, look me up if you're ever in Taiwan. And yes, the kettlebells are working out fairly well. Take care.

[Andy_S]

As a grand-student (is that the right word..?) of Chen XX, I would be interesed in hearing why Tu favored Du's material over Chen XX's. I understand what personal preference means, but there are reasons for personal preference.

In the unlikely event of anyone in Taiwan seeing him and asking him...TIA muchly.

[Formosa Neijia]

Tu mentioned nuances in Du's material that he thought were more profound but I don't remember the exact details. I can tell you that many of the older generation don't think much of the newer Chen material. There's a strong preference for the older stuff that made it to Taiwan, even though the village material became more popular in the West and in China. The older stuff does have much to offer even though many outside of Taiwan reject it out of hand because it's different.

Having said that, the younger people prefer the newer village material and I can understand it's appeal. I myself think about learning the 56 every now and then. It's hard being different when you can be part of a global movement.

Sorry to not be more specific but again this isn't my thing any more.

[Andy_S]

Dave:

SNIP
I can tell you that many of the older generation don't think much of the newer Chen material. There's a strong preference for the older stuff that made it to Taiwan, even though the village material became more popular in the West and in China
SNIP

Yes, we have been down this path before. Looking at Du and his senior student (as posted on this forum) I personally do not see a huge difference with the village material and method - it's all rock and roll to me. I DO see a big different in the Wutan Chen stuff (stance, fajing, posture, etc, etc - we have discussed this ad infinitum). I do not personally buy into this idea that the Taiwanese material is 'older' than the current stuff in the village (unless you are stating 'old and new' in the context of 'old and new to Taiwan.')

So the big question is: As far as you know, do the Taiwanese peeps have any particular skills/abilities that the village peeps do not?

Personally, I think the village method gives you an attractive art, builds good health habits and practices, and is an excellent gongfu training regimen. My major gripe is that they either do not teach (or do not know) much form application, though they are very good at PH wrestling.

On a very different point, I should add here that the Huleijia in Huleijia village (across the ditch from Chen Village) is also very different to that which is played in Taiwan these days.

[taiwandeutscher]

On a very different point, I should add here that the Huleijia in Huleijia village (across the ditch from Chen Village) is also very different to that which is played in Taiwan these days.

No, not so, necessarily.
One of Wang Jinrang's indoors (Taiwan Huleijia), had met up with the mainland Huleijia guys in Spain; they liked each other a lot, saw many common ground and only little differences.

There must be one Spanish website, which I don't have at hand right now, where you can find them all togehter.

[Formosa Neijia]

...it's all rock and roll to me. ... I do not personally buy into this idea that the Taiwanese material is 'older' than the current stuff in the village ...Personally, I think the village method gives you an attractive art, builds good health habits and practices, and is an excellent gongfu training regimen.

And seriously, what else do you need? As long as you have a system that does what you need, then nothing else really matters.

That's a large part of the problem with Tu and the other first generation of students that learned from the great KMT guys. The have all this wonderful, old material (I buy that argument BTW, there are some real differences), but when is enough enough? The subtleties that Tu showed me that caused him to prefer Du's material were probably deeper as he said, but were they things that I could master in this lifetime? Not likely.

That extends across the board with the material from all those old guys. Du, Liu, Chen Pan-ling, etc. were all professional martial artists who had a ton of material. It makes that older generation who learned from them mad or sad that they can't pass it all on but most of us just can't justify learning it all. We have jobs, family, etc. and no way to work as professional martial artists. Letting some of it go and keeping the essentials is the only way to go. Will the world end if no one preserves the tiger hook form? Probably not.

As for the huleijia being different, when you understand the system then you'll know why. Hulei is a widely varying system encompassing MANY ways of moving. It isn't supposed to be one thing. If it all looked the same, then it wouldn't be huleijia.

[edededed]

Wutan is pretty interesting how they gathered material from many of the styles that came to Taiwan from the Mainland...

Bajiquan, Piguaquan, Baguazhang, Mizongquan, Liuhetanglangquan from Liu Yunqiao (the "main" connection of all Wutan people)
Liuhetanglangquan, other tanglangquan lines from Zhang Xiangsan
Babutanglangquan from Wei Xiaotang (via Su Yuzhang?)
Chen style Taijiquan from Du Yuzhe
Longfist from Han Qingtang
Sunbinquan
...and so on...

Not every group seems to have everything, but it seems that a lot of CMA friends shared a lot of material with each other in those days in Taiwan!

[count]

Hello,

Just a few comments, only on the Chen Taiji: Very "baijiesque" performance and to be honest, not much of Chen style flavour... This should be the old frame from Du Yuzhe but, I cannot see much of it in this video. Shenfa is rather sloppy and the fajin is, well...

A few comments, First and foremost, I see Paolo C. has done nice work in Norway in a very short time. Props to him and his students. It takes a long time to build your own frame let a lone, perfect another person's frame (Du). Of course there is "baji fajing" and influence in it. It was developed at Wutan.

Wutan is pretty interesting how they gathered material from many of the styles that came to Taiwan from the Mainland...

Not every group seems to have everything, but it seems that a lot of CMA friends shared a lot of material with each other in those days in Taiwan!

Shared and spread around the world. It's remarkable considering Liu Yun Chiao only started teaching publicly when he was very old. And not for very long either. Maybe the last 10 years of his life.

Maybe the flavor is sloppy in the video clips, or maybe it hasn't "cooked" enough yet. But the Wutan flavor is being well represented in Norway. Maybe Paolo will stop by and comment on this.