martin wheeler

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Re: martin wheeler

Postby RobP2 on Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:50 am

I guess it's easy to make assumptionsbut my opinions are based on facts and people known to me who, through training and luck, have come through some, in one case very heavy, situations. As I said before if people inside or outside the System fail to distinguish between drills, "light" free play, movement exercises etc and "real" work then that's up to them. Imagine watching or doing some playful push hands and taking that as how to respond in a life and death struggle?

I've certainly never had M or V state that knife work is anything other than difficult and potentially deadly and you are primarily working damage limnitation. In fact that was one of the major points put across last time I trained in Moscow (pic below). There are always people who will play pretend at being deadly knife warriors without ever breaking a sweat, but there are people who pretend lots of things

The training is something to be taken as a whole, to break it down or bolt bits on is to miss the point IMHO

"You really think you can easily defend against something like this?"
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http://www.cuttingedgeshop.com/CUTTINGEDGEALBUM/moscowtrip20072.html
Last edited by RobP2 on Tue Oct 06, 2009 2:45 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: martin wheeler

Postby middleway on Tue Oct 06, 2009 4:14 am

"You really think you can easily defend against something like this?"

http://www.cuttingedgeshop.com/CUTTINGE ... 20072.html


ya know ... i would actually prefer to defend something like that than a blade of a few inches thats easily concealable, very hard to see or recognize and can be manipulated very easily by the attacker.

The training is something to be taken as a whole, to break it down or bolt bits on is to miss the point IMHO


Agreed. Do you think its true however that some / quite a few in systema circles mistake these 'training's' as useful stand alone methods?

For example in the seminar i came to years ago with you, we worked some stuff off a knife on the chest where movement combined with a simple lock was aplied. Very basic stuff for the taiji crowd hosting you.

One of your students came over to me n paul, who had been working knife stuff for a little while by this point, and tried to show how the pin or lock worked without success, which is fine, but he then went on to say that if he really whacked it on my wrist would be finished and that would be the end of the fight.

I pointed out that while he was using both hands on my wrist i would have punched him in a good few times in the jaw or temple and that i didn't think it was the point of the drill. To which he replied 'i would rather take punches to the jaw or temple as long as i have the knife hand controlled'.

This astonished me somewhat as he had completely missed the point of the obvious 'training drill' we were doing and was willing to take knock out shots to the head for the purpose of holding onto the knife arm with both hands. Mistaking it for a practical stand alone method. you had even pointed out it was simply a drill in the seminar ... but it didnt seem to have sunk in.

How do you ensure that, with the array of methods used in Systema where a knife is used for movement training etc, it is very clear in the minds of the the trainees that these are not 'reality based' methods in their own right but simply part of the process of acquiring the required skill set?

Many thanks.

Chris
Last edited by middleway on Tue Oct 06, 2009 4:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: martin wheeler

Postby RobP2 on Tue Oct 06, 2009 4:40 am

Hi Chris

Yes I remember that guy and apologise lol.... sometimes in classes you get people who want to instruct more than they want to learn :-)

I guess it's down to the instructor to make very clear the purpose of the drill and to reinforce that where neccesary. Actually one of the best ways to reinforce it is to drop in pressure testing as often as neccesary to give people a chance to put all the componenst together. We had a session on this last Saturday (clip coming once I've reviewd the footage!) and a lot of interesting stuff came out.

Of course there are people who will avoid the pressure stuff and stay in their comfort zone - but what can you do? I'm lucky in having a good group of guys who "get it" and often come out with their own observations and suggestions, which makes my job easy.

To some extent these are universal problems - how to make training real (of course, you can't) and how to keep things appropriate. However in some ways it may be more prevalent in Systema where so many things are used as drills, the purpose of which is not always obvious - funny enough I find people from a "martial arts" background struggle more than people with no formal experience. Steve made a good point about this on his blog recently
http://stevewildash.blogspot.com/2009/09/martial-puzzle.html

cheers

Rob
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Re: martin wheeler

Postby middleway on Tue Oct 06, 2009 5:09 am

Thanks rob,

Agree with it all. I can see from your clips that your guys now are very committed and hardworking. Some nice hard work in your recent clips! :D Must be a cracking training atmosphere.

happy training and all the best.

Chris
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Re: martin wheeler

Postby dtactics on Tue Oct 06, 2009 10:52 am

RobP2 wrote:The training is something to be taken as a whole, to break it down or bolt bits on is to miss the point IMHO

"You really think you can easily defend against something like this?"
Image
http://www.cuttingedgeshop.com/CUTTINGEDGEALBUM/moscowtrip20072.html


Agreed.

Chris has a point. I too am dumbfounded at how many folks at Systema seminars can't wait to go out and use what they saw. Unlike us, they can't discern fact from fiction. I disagree that if they're unable to distinguish right from wrong then it's on them. That's why they're paying students. They need guidance and we owe it to them to make perfectly clear what is of a movement/intuitional/possibilities exploration type of drill and what is a higher percentage alternative for their realistic self defense.

The problem with most Systema groups is that they drill to death those cute little moves they see V and M do without the faintest notion of its realistic implementation. Hence the verbal diarrhea of excuses immediately following any failed attempts with a modicum of resistance or non-compliance. It's clear your school is not the norm and I applaud your honesty in pushing the envelop. However, what you know best, others may not know at all and weekend warriors can be highly impressionable.

Thanks for sharing those pics. M has a definite affinity for big knives. Larissa and Daniel are so sweet.
Last edited by dtactics on Tue Oct 06, 2009 10:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: martin wheeler

Postby GrahamB on Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:50 pm

Tom - Is that Edward Norton from Fight Club? So that's where they got all their moves....
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Re: martin wheeler

Postby RobP2 on Tue Oct 06, 2009 2:50 pm

dtactics wrote:
Unlike us,


Please don't quote me, we are not alike at all
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Re: martin wheeler

Postby RobP2 on Tue Oct 06, 2009 2:52 pm

GrahamB wrote:Tom - Is that Edward Norton from Fight Club? So that's where they got all their moves....


No, he is actually VInce Noir's younger brother

On the way out to Moscow he bought a "man bag" at Heathrow that cost about £80...he never did live that down ;D
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Re: martin wheeler

Postby dtactics on Tue Oct 06, 2009 4:02 pm

RobP2 wrote:
dtactics wrote:
Unlike us,


Please don't quote me, we are not alike at all


Where did I quote you? I was referring to "us" as in the real professionals on this board. Only thing vaguely similar between us is that we're both certified my V and M. Period!

I'm well aware we're not alike. I wouldn't dream of telling a student that if they're not getting it, it's on them. Thank God!
Last edited by dtactics on Tue Oct 06, 2009 4:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: martin wheeler

Postby RobP2 on Wed Oct 07, 2009 1:22 am

The quote is the little bit in your post that says "RobP wrote"

And this time you misquote me, that's not what I meant at all and you know it.

If you are certified by V and M I'm sure you could prove it
Last edited by RobP2 on Wed Oct 07, 2009 1:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: martin wheeler

Postby dtactics on Sun Oct 11, 2009 3:20 pm

RobP2 wrote:As I said before if people inside or outside the System fail to distinguish between drills, "light" free play, movement exercises etc and "real" work then that's up to them. If you are certified by V and M I'm sure you could prove it

I take from your statement that people inside would be your own students and therefore I find it an irresponsible statement to make about your own student's confusion.

What are you 2 years old or something? Yes, I do have certification from M & V. Also from K.K. And no, I won't be needing to prove it to you.

Do you know anything about the real operator world or do you just theorize and live vicariously through "first hand accounts" of those who've actually done it?

I'm done with your type ::)
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Re: martin wheeler

Postby GrahamB on Mon Oct 12, 2009 4:42 am

dtactics wrote:I take from your statement that people inside would be your own students and therefore I find it an irresponsible statement to make about your own student's confusion.


I'm sure Rob can speak for himself here, but I find this attitude a lot on this board - that the teacher is completely responsible for the student and everything they think and do. I'm sure in the kind of 'no blinking no thinking' and 'Now bow to your Senesei!' world that martial arts have come out of that was almost literally true. But in reality people are individuals. You can show them the gate, but they have to walk through it themselves.

I wonder wether people take this burden of responsibility too heavily sometimes. I'm sure everybody here knows that you can tell people something a million times, then one day they suddenly 'get it', and ask you why you never told them that before! You have been telling them that before, it's just that they weren't ready to take it in.

Anyway, I'm sure I'm rambling now, but there is a point in there somewhere. Here's a link to one of the best articles I've read about knife fighting:

http://stevewildash.blogspot.com/2009/1 ... -lies.html
Last edited by GrahamB on Mon Oct 12, 2009 4:58 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: martin wheeler

Postby RobP2 on Tue Oct 13, 2009 2:18 am

dtactics wrote: Yes, I do have certification from M & V. Also from K.K. And no, I won't be needing to prove it to you.



It's the beauty and safety of the internet that you can sling as much mud as you like around without ever having to produce an ounce of proof for anything. In the absence of any kind of proof or anything of susbtance you'll forgive me if I don't take your efforts too seriously.

Graham - it's an interesting point. Even the best teacher can only be a signpost. I think there is also a perception in nartial arts, at least when people start, that a teacher will show them some neat tricks. It's the same in the RBSD world, people want a quick fix for a perceived problem. Of course once you get into training you realise, to be cheesy, that change, at least in part "has to come from within". That's why it's important IMV to have some kind of "inner work" going on in the training, whatever style it is. A responsible teacher will have been that way himself so he can give guidance - and I think the further you go the more guidance you need.

cheers
Rob
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