martin wheeler

[Ian]

Chris, Doc,

The only things I've been taught to assume - by professionals who employ systema in their line of work and have successfully used their skills against knife attacks on more than one occasion - are a) always assume there's more than one, and b) always assume they're armed. I naturally add c) they're bigger and stronger than me, since that's a fact in certain countries.

What you're seeing in these clips is a small part of training. The strategy for application is avoid, impact, impact, impact, control, maybe some body mechanics manipulation. And yes, we also train at much higher intensities, with shouting, shoving, grabbing, punching, ambush, in confined spaces etc.

The 'fancy' work is:
-body information, something you can use IF the situation presents itself, not something you'd use in a complete sequence of A then B then C.
-skill development, developing certain attributes that are useful for combat. Is there any purpose to sensitivity work (similar to tuishou) with a knife? Yes. But it's not a strategy to dance around trying to tingjin while someone tries to stab you for real.

I've already posted an example of a professional who acknowledges the effectiveness of these drills against real attacks. I have other examples where the type of training posted in this very topic has saved peoples' lives, but I'll refrain from going into detail because I think the point is clear.

Granted, though - not every systema school goes into the SD stuff as they're stuck in the skill development stage. This is unfortunate, because it means what they learn is empty (just IME).

[Sprint]

I've been having a think about this defending against the knife idea. My gut instinct has always been to run. I've always kind of ignored the what-if-you-can't -get-away idea because I trust my instincts and believe I have quite good awareness - so would n't be there in the first place. However there is always the chance - what then?

I'd forgotten about it, but the two (or one) fingered eye gouge is the only thing I can think of that would give you a prayer assuming someone has a hold of you and is about to start stabbing. You'd need to practice it with your left hand mostly, because most people are right handed and so would grab you with their left hand and stab with their right.

Does anyone practice eye gouges?

[RobP2]

Personally the knife training I've had from the Russian guys has been the most thorough and practical I've come across. It's not a separate thing in itself, so prescribing one tactic or method to it is a little short sighted IMO. It's another aspect of the work, albeit a challenging and difficult one

There are two problems. the first is perception, where people see an attribute development drill and judge it as a simulation or application. Secondly people who train the drills and also fail to see they are steps on the way and not the end result.

Running away? Admirable and sensible in the correct circumstances. But do you train it? When was the last time you went for a run, or tried jumping a fence, or fell over, rolled and got back up again?

99.9% fatality rate with this method? Then I know a few dead men walking

[GrahamB]

Running away? Admirable and sensible in the correct circumstances. But do you train it? When was the last time you went for a run, or tried jumping a fence, or fell over, rolled and got back up again?

Monday.

[Doc Stier]

An angry woman with a knife in hand should be avoided at all costs!

Choose your fights wisely, gentlemen.

[Chris Fleming]

"The 'fancy' work is:
-body information, something you can use IF the situation presents itself, not something you'd use in a complete sequence of A then B then C.
-skill development, developing certain attributes that are useful for combat. Is there any purpose to sensitivity work (similar to tuishou) with a knife? Yes. But it's not a strategy to dance around trying to tingjin while someone tries to stab you for real."


Well I'm not trying to knock Systema, but I will be fair in calling it as I see it, and by that I'm mainly referring to the first clip which started this topic. And to be fair, the man teaching that seminar would have had to either change his tactics if it was a real knife coming at him, or he would have gotten shanked 6 ways from Sunday, especially from the first instance where his student came at him with a knife. Also all those little knife disarms with his foot and whatnot are not going to work. It's cool to train such things if perhaps you find yourself for some reason on your back and your only hope is to kick at your opponent, but seriously, why would you ever drop to the ground like that, especially if your whole paradigm is to understand (rightly!) that there may be more than one opponent?

Again, not knocking it, but merely looking at the clips presented here from time to time, lets face it, all of these clips are a teacher doing self defense movements against a very willing opponent (look at how the man acts at 1:00 when his teacher has his back to him. He's like, "uh, is it ok if I jump on his back and put him in a choke?") with a group of men wearing army pants standing around looking on. I'm sure there is more to Systema to that but I would love to see them not get all floppy when playing with knives.

[Ian]

From the website:

Ryan Bertrand, Lead Defensive Tactics Instructor, S.W.A.T.



As the Lead Defensive Tactics Instructor for my department and SWAT
entry team member, I feel a true responsibility to the community I
serve and to the Officers I train, to be ready to provide solutions to
their problems.

Unfortunately, in some circles, there is an idea of “lowest common
denominator” training, a type of check-the-box activity where the
people who are tasked with going into harms way receive only the most
basic and simple training. Sadly, real life often demands so much
more.

Having trained with Martin Wheeler, I can say that Martin is one of a
few select instructors who are not only willing to show “advanced”
concepts to those that need it, but is also able to truly do it.

During recent SWAT-related weapon training, several students and I
posed challenging “what if” situations to Martin (movement with
weapons, transition work, multiple Officer/multiple suspect
situations, weapon retention/takeaways and team concepts). Not only
was Martin able to demonstrate numerous options for the operators in
attendance, but better yet, Martin was able to instruct us in such a
way the what we were learning would be something that we could keep
and take with us.

For anyone who considers themselves a professional and is looking for
some of the most effective and practical training there is, I would,
without any reservation, give my highest recommendation to training
with Martin Wheeler.

Respectfully,

Ryan Bertrand

To consider: why do numerous professionals consider this type of training to be of value?

Conversely, what must be done to contextualise these skill-development drills and make them applicable to real life?

[GrahamB]

Running away? Admirable and sensible in the correct circumstances. But do you train it? When was the last time you went for a run, or tried jumping a fence, or fell over, rolled and got back up again?

Monday.

Was there someone threatening you or chasing you with a knife?

The Mrs. doesn't count.

She doesn't need a knife to make me run

[Chris Fleming]

"To consider: why do numerous professionals consider this type of training to be of value?"

Who knows? Law enforcement and military is big business just like anything else. A big niche market. I remember one of the first times hearing about Systema--it was a blackbelt magazine ad for a trip to Moscow to learn the Secret Fighting Skills of the Spetzsnaz(TM)!!!

Often times people will say they teach SWAT teams and what not but in reality they merely gave a one time seminar. Not saying that this must be what is going on here, but just saying that this does happen. My point is that there is a big jump from saying that one group of law enforcement people went to a seminar to saying that ALL law enforcement/military people are now learning such and such system. Again, just keeping it real here.

This is not at all to say that his shit is fake, not at all, but I also can't help but noticing that the man from the first clip doesn't list any law enforcement or military experience in his bio unless I missed it. It did say that he was a bouncer. That to me makes him good enough to learn something from, as he has real situation/fight experience, but if I was a military commander or law enforcement captain, I would seriously question letting a person in the door to teach my men when the person in question has never done it himself.

"You ever served in an infantry unit"?

"Ever served in a forward area"?

"Put your life in another man's hands...asked him to put his life in yours"?

[Pat]

*edited my post cause I don't wanna be a dick*

[Doc Stier]

*edited my post cause I don't wanna be a dick*

Aw, c'mon, Pat. It's OK. There's a lot of guys being a dick around here lately, so how bad can your comments really be by comparison?

[Ian]

Often times people will say they teach SWAT teams and what not but in reality they merely gave a one time seminar. Not saying that this must be what is going on here, but just saying that this does happen. My point is that there is a big jump from saying that one group of law enforcement people went to a seminar to saying that ALL law enforcement/military people are now learning such and such system. Again, just keeping it real here.

The above was a testimonial from one seminar, and I agree it would be wrong to extrapolate to assume everyone is now using systema.

Many other professionals use systema in their work, that's what I meant. It's just a fact.

I mean I'm an amateur and I do this for fun, but what professionals do is worth listening to, just because they're better than I am.

Doesn't apply to just systema, but any skillset or style that's used in a professional context

[leopard]

I've been having a think about this defending against the knife idea. My gut instinct has always been to run. I've always kind of ignored the what-if-you-can't -get-away idea because I trust my instincts and believe I have quite good awareness - so would n't be there in the first place. However there is always the chance - what then? Does anyone practice eye gouges?

You'd better run quickly and not linger. (warning - real knife attack footage)

[dtactics]

That's the difference between LEOs and civilians. Where the average person can/should flee and create real distance from the knife wielder, cops are expected to rush in and neutralize the threat.

I've seen 99.9% of laying on your back/new age/barely touching techniques fail in the real world. I'm in a profession where I actually see these unfortunate things. I don't doubt there's a couple of specops guys walking around who've survived knife encounters from their backs while imitating lions playing with their cubs tricks, but I'll bet their AAR probably revealed it wasn't intentional and they'd survived only because they were able to deploy more lethal force than the threat presented ie. guns, machine guns, etc. or had overpowering back up nearby to save their hides. Those are the nice little details which gets omitted from the lore.

But hey, don't take my word for it, next time you face a chap like the one in this clip, do lay down and try those cutesy Mikhail and Vlad moves and report back... if you're able. Some consumers just have to buy everything they're sold hook, line and sinker.

FWIW, I enjoy Systema tremendously and appreciate all of its wonderful attributes. I'm also capable of throwing out garbage when I see it. My loyalty is not to a system but to the people that system was designed to help.

[Sprint]

I've been having a think about this defending against the knife idea. My gut instinct has always been to run. I've always kind of ignored the what-if-you-can't -get-away idea because I trust my instincts and believe I have quite good awareness - so would n't be there in the first place. However there is always the chance - what then? Does anyone practice eye gouges?

You'd better run quickly and not linger. (warning - real knife attack footage)

Hi Leopard

When I said "there is always a chance", I was meaning there is always the chance you find yourself in a postion where you cannot run, as Shooter, I think, already pointed out.

Those police officers must have been pretty green to f*ck that up so badly. I'm not saying I would have done any better, but I'd like to think that as soon as the guy attacked he'd have 4 bullets in him.